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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » How much effect does the market have on your own image? (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Actually, when I think about it, I rarely suggest anything here, I’m to busy beating mindpro and Danny off my back.
That’s the wrong information that they speak about, and causes so much distraction.

Notice they never say exactly what I actually said. It’s if I say it, it is wrong. Even when I agree it is wrong
because I have no experience in all the unspoken stuff. Funny in a way.


Anyway and I promise to stop. Chris I'm sorry for my part in the big distrction here.

Tom

My God Tom ONLY YOU would refer to having the experience and ability to do the very thing being talked about as "the unspoken stuff". These delusions run pretty deep. But just to show you you are wrong, so you can admit it, here you go. I am going to show you ME saying EXACTLY what you said and why it is wrong. (The "funny in a way" thing is your inability to comprehend what is written. Even if it is YOU who writes it! Oh and you run a daycare center to help develop kids. WOW irony is fun.)

"Word of mouth is absolutely NOT A LIMITED to those who have seen you. This is ridiculous. People who have never had a Cuban cigar understand the standard. That is the most short sighted thing to believe and it limits success tremendously!

You can develop (And SHOULD!) a word of mouth reputation that preceeds you. This is the point of word of mouth.

People who do not own a Rolex, a Ferrari, or eaten Kobe beef know the standard because of WORD OF MOUTH.

The idea that all magicians are the same is the point of view of a hobbiest. It is simply not the reality of the situation at all.

In the real world of performance for money and to earn a living I'm sorry Tom what you just posted is very bad information. It is very limiting and causes stagnation."

That was me addressing YOU claiming word of mouth only reaches those who see you. Then it continued. (Without you EVER admitting you're wrong.) So you said this Tom.

"Of course it is limited to those who have seen you, how will I tell others about someone I don’t know? I hardly think someone seeing your show will go all over town doing your advertising for you. They may tell their 3 freinds but that's about it. You have to do a LOT of shows before word of mouth has any impact whatsoever. True it helps and it builds over time but that takes a long time. The long time professionals can depend on repeat business, others can’t.

Yes in the eyes of the general public all magicians are seen different than what other magicians may see you.

Tom" OK so you have taken a very strong opinion point of view, which is HILARIOUSLY wrong. So I then ANSWERED YOU.

"So nobody knows about Cuban cigars but those who buy them and 3 people? How silly.

This is a very limiting viewpoint. I will tell you this. When you understand this concept better it helps with the job of being an entertainer.

You are completely misunderstanding the concept of branding and what it can do for you.

Maybe in the Daycare center magician market you are right. In the rest of the world you are just way wrong.

Please do not infect people with this ridiculous concept. It will hurt them.

YES IT TAKES TIME. But so does everything we are talking about.

The only glitch is you have to be able to do something that is worth talking about. If you are mediocre and exactly the same as everyone else and do nothing that sets you apart word of mouth does not work. As a matter of fact it works against you."

Mind you Tom this would be SO much easier if you could just read the thread YOURSELF and not keep trolling because you are angry. But I can continue with examples from this and almost EVERY OTHER thread you post in to show you that I do answer you DIRECTLY. YOU then go and make up stuff like you just did that is so easily refutable. You are not just so busy keeping us off your back, you are just so busy trying to think up a bad excuse for a crazy post. Then instead of LEARNING, you get so wound up in "I am entitled to my opinion" that you go over to Facebook to find some imaginary friends to get you encouraged to start trolling. You have posted at LEAST 24 times in this topic and most of those to troll! At least 14 of those were AFTER you first said you would stop!

And of course let's not forget the problem here Tom. Your imaginary friends on Facebook.
"Yes I should’ve stopped but I got a very funny message early this morning on facebook from a well known magician saying…..

“Give’em hell Tom over on the Café, don’t let those two comics run you off like they have so many others.”


But seriously I will stop now. Now be nice people are watching.

You can now explain exactly how people can get in touch with you without using the internet or a phone.
(You’ve said both were not needed) You can do it without any interruptions. Have at it.


Tom"

Oh and yet another threat from you to stop being this way.

And as for your post above Tom your "agreement" always involves the word "but". Again as I pointed out (And your comprehension skills really need some work.) ignore everything before the word "but". You agree BUT, is not agreement Tom. It is a contradiction. That is where you go wrong. I know you are just so mad that you are not taken seriously but that is just the way it is Tom. "The unspoken" stuff IS WHAT EXPERIENCE IS. You have been farting into the same couch cushion for 3 decades and your experience in this is just not what it once was. IF IT EVER WAS. Your problem is that you believe everyone here is exactly like you with no experience just talking about old days that may or may not have happened. Sorry Tom but EVERYONE else in the thread so far literally is out RIGHT AT THIS TIME IN THEIR LIVES working performance art! Not dreaming about it but working it on a fairly successful level. You have never done it and do not know what it takes.

I do not know how to do kids shows. Have you EVER seen me post about doing one? NO and you never will. Because I know enough to know my opinion about it, though I may have some "related" experience, means almost NOTHING. So my lord Tom PLEASE for your own image just stop posting.

We all know you will NEVER admit you are wrong. But really now that you have admitted you are intentionally derailing threads for your own pleasure nobody buys the "nice guy" thing. You are blinded by anger. We want to have occasional adult discussions here and you don't help when you do this at all. Worse yet my PM box gets filled up because people don't want to wade through the nonsense that you put up just to find some of the gold that is in the threads. You are HURTING the young guys or new older guys wanting to learn. We know your agenda and that of your imaginary friends on Facebook. Now please stop.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Jul 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh I completely agree that word of mouth is the best and cheapest advertising you can get. But I don’t agree that it will reach enough people to make an impact for the average magician.

Tom


The reason I say that is the “Average” magician is not well known like a Cuban Cigar or a brand like Nike. It takes a huge advertising budget to reach that level, something the average magician doesn’t have.

You seem to be suggesting that the only way is to allow a lot of time to pass, (I get that from you saying "time is your only ally") and it does take time, but there are so many other thing that can be done right now. Those are things we should be talking about.


You're welcome to belive that word of mouth is all you need, I just disagree. There was no need in you making a big deal about it.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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When did I say that "word of mouth is all you need"? YOU MADE THAT UP.

I do not "seem to be suggesting" YOU ARE INFERRING. THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM TOM. Reading is fundamental but comprehension is an advanced skill. If that is what you get from "time is your only ally" then you really are FAR less educated about business than you pretend. (Which is CLEAR.)

TIME is the great leveling agent Tom. Time is something that you guru followers don't want to admit is the BEST thing for a company or person in service. I know you don't understand this but TIME is how people get to see or hear about you again and again. Being "that" company or business or performer over TIME IS what helps. It won't happen instantly. You won't get set apart from the competition instantly.

ALL those things you NEED TO BE DOING RIGHT NOW matter. I NEVER SAID THEY DIDN'T. I am simply saying that you need to be doing them right now, FOR A LONG TIME or they don't matter. You have to be "that guy" for a LONG TIME Tom. You never WERE that guy.

I get emails EVERY DAY from resort companies who want us to do what we did for our partners. In the industry we are fairly well known for doing what we do. 12 years ago I could not get an APPOINTMENT with those who are now wanting me to come work with them. Why? TIME doing what we have been on a very high level for those we work with. Reputations are made over TIME Tom. NOT INSTANTLY.

HOW is that reputation made? Easy. You will have a reputation no matter what. (For example yours here is pretty clear.) I thought it was fairly self explanatory that you had to be doing a great job.

Go back and READ AND COMPREHEND the first post Chris made. Here is the relevant part Tom.

"Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.

I know that once you hit a certain level your reputation will speak for itself - but we are not there quite yet.

So has this happened to anyone else and how did you approach the scenario? Is this just the normal scenario for someone building up their business and I'm just thinking it's odd because of my perception of it?"

HE IS NOT ASKING FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO BEHAVE TOM. Christopher KNOWS how to behave and IS professional and IS doing all those things he needs to be doing NOW that you think are OH SO IMPORTANT. He is asking what to do in the case of acting professionally and people getting to know that they are different, and TIME IS HIS ONLY ALLY.

Does that follow for you Tom? Do you see what is being said? I do not have a language more simple in which to explain this to you. Maybe Ray can find a way to get this so you can understand.

I NEVER SAID WORD OF MOUTH WAS ALL YOU NEED Tom. Not once. But since he is already doing the right things we moved on from that. Maybe you missed that part of the discussion and you can come back and apologize for derailing this thread so badly!

Now STOP trolling. You have YET AGAIN been shown where you are wrong. I doubt you are "man enough" in your own words to admit it. (I have a side bet with mindpro.) You blew up this whole thread for 4 pages just because you do not want to bother to read and comprehend what is being said. You are so desperate to be taken seriously that you derail literally every thread that comes along just to further your agenda and get even with me. It is childish behavior.

Can you now back off and admit you were wrong and stop?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Yep I was wrong…. you certainly can twist things even worst than I thought.

You have no idea how the very young performers are so successful today.

Superstars at a very young age didn’t come from waiting.

But you right, I may as well stop, because you don’t have a clue.

You can carry on without me now. Thanks for your time Danny.


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Dannydoyle
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NOBODY SAID THEY CAME FROM WAITING! Why do you insist on doing that?

I never said wait. I said Christopher was already doing the right things. IN THIS THREAD TO ANSWER HIS QUESTION is what we are talking about Tom. We are not talking about making a superstar.

Stop changing the subject to things you want to pretend you have knowledge of. YOU have never been a superstar. You have never been a performer on any level. Stop pretending. Go yell at kids for being on your lawn.

You are right about one thing. I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE BABBLING ABOUT. You really are not going to stop. You keep saying you will but you won't. I didn't twist ANYTHING, I simply quoted word for word DIRECTLY what was said. (Oh and it is "worse" than you thought.)

If you would stop trying to derail this into something YOU want to talk about we could get to what Christopher is asking about. 4 pages of your bs! My lord you need to stop listening to your imaginary friends of Facebook.

Are you REALLY going to stop Tom? I mean this is something the mods should look at. You are just such a big distraction. If you are REALLY sorry for your part in the distraction here then you would stop doing it. You were not "part" of the big distraction, you ARE the big distraction.

Wimp Lo strikes again.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d696t3yALAY

"I am bleeding, thus making me the victor".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Back to the original topic now, WitchDocChris, I am hoping you can answer some questions for me to help me/us better understand your concern, dilemma, and current position.

What is it you are shooting for?
What is your definition of success as it pertains to what you are seeking?
What do you see as your obstacles?

I ask for very specific reasons which I will address after hearing your response, as it will likely help both of us ( and others here) as there are some things I question about your type of performers that I'm trying to understand, so this is very interesting to me as well (your thoughts and answers). Thanks.
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Jul 3, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
In another thread about insurance, Danny said this -

Quote:
On Jul 3, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
But as I said the looking more professional stuff on some level is wishful thinking to me. Once you are on whatever level it is assumed you have it anyhow.


And that just solidified something that's been bopping around my head lately.

I know each region/market is going to have its unique quirks and oddities. Like which advertising methods are most effective and that kind of thing.

But here's something my wife and I have been dealing with - There are few serious performers in this area, outside of music acts. Unless you go down to Baltimore, there's probably less than 20 or so people who perform for the public regularly, who do things like circus, sideshow, magic, mentalism, aerials, acrobatics, juggling, etc.

Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.

I know that once you hit a certain level your reputation will speak for itself - but we are not there quite yet.

So has this happened to anyone else and how did you approach the scenario? Is this just the normal scenario for someone building up their business and I'm just thinking it's odd because of my perception of it?


Hey Chris,

First, again my apologies for being a part of the distraction here on your thread. And like I said, I really mean that.

But to your post, and my first thought which I never got around to is and I know this from experience, is a business name itself tells others so much about you. Not saying you should change your name, but I can picture some in my area running from someone named Witchdoctor. LOL. I mean that in a laughable way but I am interested in hearing some, if any, reactions to your name that you may have had. Share if you can.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Ray Pierce
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Quote:
On Jul 3, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.


Danny & Mindpro have given SO much wonderful information. These are just a few thoughts from what I've been through.

I've always believed that upon meeting someone new, there is a 30 second to 1 minute credibility phase where they form an opinion on your level of ability and professionalism. I was VERY lucky that I started working in a large Equity theater from about 11 years old on. I quickly learned what it meant to be a professional and kept those ideals with me throughout my entire career.

I still work mainly professional venues but every now and then I'll be doing a private corporate event and have someone say with amazement... "Wow, you're so professional!" which always made me laugh. I always thought, "Well, yeah... I would hope so!" It took me a while to understand that everyone in the industry didn't have the same ideals and attention to detail that I did which is why I was so grateful for my early learning years with such good examples of the craft.

When we're touring now, I meet each new House TD every day and understand that we will be doing this credibility dance so upon greeting them, I will usually either joke with them about some complex subtle thing I've noticed in the theater or ask them a suitably advanced question letting them form a credible opinion of my knowledge. After that, we can get to work with mutual respect. It is usually more critical when I walk in as a magician vs when I walk in as a production manager, TD, rigger or anything else.

My personal goal is to get them out of viewing me as "Talent" or "The Magician" as quickly as possible so that we can begin working as a team to solve the problems at hand. To think of it a different way, I always just want to be viewed as a "Peer" with anyone I'm working with, whether it is a celebrity or a technician. It just seems to open up a more elegant communication path with which to proceed and helps to divide us from the rest of the pack!
Ray Pierce
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Mindpro
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Man, what you said here is soooo important, yet so many do not truly understand this. I agree completely with the initial 30 second or 1-minute credibility and professional impression.

What I am finding now in many situations, where I too like to been seen and received as professionals, yet I get so many people TD and crew embers that actually think I am the big-deal professional (one of the top in my performance market) and they are thrilled to be working with me and someone on my level. I went in seeking a peer relationship but due to my image and positioning in the market, they view me as someone greater to look up to and respect, and of course, their goal then is to impress and please me because of what they believe is my perceived level. It can be very rewarding. This also carries on (and quite rewarding) through to return appearances (over 80% of my business) and the level of professionalism and reputation is now established an in place before I ever return.

I too grew up the business and like others our age - the Jacksons, Osmonds, Cowsills, DeFrancos, and other peer artists our age, being a professional was the first and priority concern - our parents and handlers made SURE of this. Our talent and skills would never have the chance to be presented if we weren't seen as professionals and taken seriously from the very first credibility impression - actually before this first in-person impression as our promotional materials, managers, agents, promoters, and road/tour managers precedes us with this reputation and impression long before we ever arrived on-site.

This is an area of concern with guys like WithchDocChris because of the nature and image of his type of performer and their perception and first impression. He may have things working against him before even making that first credibility impression. I know many younger guys that think this isn't prevalent today and that causal and unusual is more accepted, but while it may be in some circles, it will never overcome or eliminate the exact professionalism we are speaking of here.

From the minute of our initial contact to that very crucial first impression, all of this is an important part of our business operations. Performers are delusional. I mean that in their focus is often on things of personal interest or concern, and this more often than not has them not relaizing the most important thing which is what is important to the potential client, customer, venue and their audience.
Dannydoyle
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I have always maintained that the first impression is when contact is made. This is why the rush to automate responses to clients boggles my mind. Yet it was all the rage in this section for a long time.

Auto respond email, auto send newsletters, automate it all. THAT is the first impression. You can't be bothered to respond. Not what I would leave as my first impression.

First impressions happen WAY before most think. The guru crowd just seems to miss all this. I have always felt if someone doesn't find me important enough to interact with I move along. Simple as can be.

I too Ray want to be seen as part of the team. We all have an important part to play, mine just happens to be out front is all. But the tech guy is just as important. At resorts some of these kids work 14 hours a day 6 days a week. THEY fill the room and so the tech work. Without them there is no show. It is important that they feel and ARE part is the team.

And when you act like this always the front page on you is that you are great to work with. It takes time for this reputation to happen, but it does. The only way for it to happen is to be working and just do it. You never pick up on it any other way.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Let me expand just a little on what I said about a business name.

A business name itself is often your first impression with customers. Many times it tells people what your’selling’ so the first mental thoughts are usually how can I tell this guy No? Most people are programmed to fear salespeople until the ice is broken. And until that ice is broken they aren’t really listening.

I have always said a magician has a better chance of getting a foot in the door whith new prospects if they call themselves an entertainer. The ‘magician’ has to first explain why he doesn’t do birthday parties. While the “Entertainer” can say, I’m glad you asked, and then get straight to it.

Again I’m not saying nothing is wrong with Chis The Witch Doctor name. Those contacting him most likely already know what he does. But I can see where in a social setting or a cold call on a prospect, where he may have some explaining to do. And why they may be thinking at first “I can’t really take this guy serious” lol This is why I asked if maybe he could share some of his better (or worst) first reaction stories. I would think he probably has some.

I know nothing about the Bizarre magic world, but I would think it would be much like talking to a hypnosis, you sort of want to look down. Smile


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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Ray Pierce
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Quote:
On Jul 7, 2019, Mindpro wrote:

What I am finding now in many situations, where I too like to been seen and received as professionals, yet I get so many people TD and crew embers that actually think I am the big-deal professional (one of the top in my performance market) and they are thrilled to be working with me and someone on my level. I went in seeking a peer relationship but due to my image and positioning in the market, they view me as someone greater to look up to and respect, and of course, their goal then is to impress and please me because of what they believe is my perceived level. It can be very rewarding. This also carries on (and quite rewarding) through to return appearances (over 80% of my business) and the level of professionalism and reputation is now established an in place before I ever return.


Yeah, I totally get that! There is something to be said for having that reputation that proceeds you. I was loading in for a headlining show in AC at the Trop and one of the guys on the crew came up and said, "You seem like you know everything that's going on, would you do me a favor and introduce me to Ray Pierce when he comes in?" lol.. it was all I could do to agree that I would. Later, just before the first show started I came out of the dressing room and went straight over to him and told him it was nice to meet him officially!

I do agree that there is some advantage in keeping that mystique and distance in some cases where it can be leveraged correctly. Personally, even when I have those rare shows where the guys set everything up for me... my first stop onstage is still with the crew. I started as a tech and will die as one. In between, I go on stage from time to time and do some tricks.
Ray Pierce
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 7, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:

I have always said a magician has a better chance of getting a foot in the door whith new prospects if they call themselves an entertainer. The ‘magician’ has to first explain why he doesn’t do birthday parties. While the “Entertainer” can say, I’m glad you asked, and then get straight to it.


Tom

This isn't even close to the experience I or 99% of people I know and work with have had. (I leave the 1% only for a margin of error. I believe the number is closer to 100%.)

If you have to sort of misrepresent what it is you do right up front that is not the best footing to start a business relationship with.

EVERYONE I have ever worked for knew exactly what it was I do and who I am. PERIOD. NO need to misrepresent it in any way or be coy or try to sneak around the word magician. That is amateur stuff.

If you have to explain why you don't do kids birthday parties there are a lot of other flaws to take care of.

Again this is the sort of thing that assumes all acts are created equal and they simply are not. NOBODY asks me if I do kids parties. It simply never happens. It didn't happen when I started. It comes to so many other things. For example I never actually DID kids parties. But if your branding is unclear, and nobody knows the difference then that is an issue to get fixed. The way to fix it is definitely NOT to misrepresent them and mislead them about what you do. I mean my lord why would you NOT tell them you are a magician? It is a very special thing! I can't imagine not wanting to tell some potential client about the very thing that sets me apart from other "entertainers". I mean you must not be that good a magician if you don't want to admit it.

I mean eventually you have to use the word "magician" and when you do what is to stop them from thinking exactly the same thing? I mean eventually it will have to come out. And when it does, now you look as if you are being sneaky. The key is not to be deceptive. (Even though magician is the job.) The key is to have your house in order as far as branding goes. Make sure that by the time they contact you or you contact them they KNOW what you do and what you are offering. There should be no question after you contact what it is you do and who you are and why you are suited for their needs. It is sales 101. Very basic.

I would never hide or be deceptive about who I am and what I do. It is a horrible way to start out a relationship with a client.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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There is a huge difference between a magician and an entertainer. To say you are an entertainer is wrong and deceptive. Most magicians are that - magicians. This is poor advice to tell or encourage someone to say they are something they are not. It can only go more wrong from there.

This is much of the problem today is guys just "call themselves" what they want and then can't deliver on that positioning or expectation.
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No the problem is trying to follow everyone else and please all the competition.

Magic can be very entertaining and if not you’re doing something wrong. Nothing at all deceptive about telling people what you do.
It’s my business I can name it what I like. If I want to play a banjo, juggle, tell jokes, sing and dance in my magic act then I will.
I can entertain anyway I like.

Yes if all you do is card tricks then of course you’re nothing but a magician and should tell people. But that doesn't change
the 'fact' that strangers will ‘assume’ you’re nothing but just ‘another’ magician. You do tricks.

My point is be different and actually have an entertaining act if you want to open more doors.


Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

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In short: (I don't have time to post 25 more times today to explain myself)

The topic is, How much effect does the market have on your own image?

The answer is: It only has an effect on your image when you allow it to.

You can change that public image by letting others know that YOU are different from all the rest.

I know several magicians that have business cards that read:

Comedy-Magic-More

Entertainer --Magician—Comedian

Certainly there is more but just that little bit there can help.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
www.tomboleware.com
Dannydoyle
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Eternal Order
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Fantastic. We have the viewpoint from the non working professional.

You said FLAT OUT the following.

"I have always said a magician has a better chance of getting a foot in the door whith new prospects if they call themselves an entertainer. The ‘magician’ has to first explain why he doesn’t do birthday parties. While the “Entertainer” can say, I’m glad you asked, and then get straight to it."

Tom this is you encouraging MAGICIANS to tell people they are "entertainers" because in your little world people think all magicians do birthday parties. This is flat out deceptive and you were called on it. Then instead of stepping back and admitting you were wrong (Which you say you do all the time.) you go on to make up silly excuses.

Tom the only "fact" is that strangers may believe YOU are just another magician. You can't speak for anyone but yourself. The idea that if you want to play banjo, tell jokes and piano and call yourself an entertainer sure go ahead. BUT what you said flat out was "magicians" have trouble being booked because of a perception so you have to deceive them to get the door open. You said nothing about banjo's and such.

This is REALLY bad advice Tom. REALLY bad and advice like this if followed will COST PEOPLE MONEY. While you need to be unique, people need to KNOW WHAT YOU DO. Deception when dealing with clients just to get in the door is very bad business.

Please do NOT post 25 more times.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Inner circle
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OMG! It is such a shame that we can not have a good professional discussion without constantly having to be dragged out of the discussion back into the kiddie pool by someone that isn't a working performer and hasn't any experience in the current working marketplace. This is so frustrating!
Dannydoyle
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Eternal Order
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I hope he is done.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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York, PA
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Well. That certainly was a journey.

Sorry I didn't respond over the weekend - I was at a gig in CT.

I will address some points -

Quote:
Also it is possible, and often necessary to outgrow your market.


I am aware of this, and I am fairly certain I will end up having to expand my market significantly if I ever want to maintain a livable wage via performance. This city only has about 40K people and most of them are not theater goers, so I do have to be careful not to burn out the potential paying audiences while I work at building my reputation.

Social media is kind of strange here. People don't seem to plan entertainment choices online. I think it's because the city basically consists of several insular groups that don't really talk to each other. So they each have their own online groups and physical haunts where they hang out regularly. If you're not advertising in those places, those people will never hear about your event.

Quote:
As someone who has identified this such as you and your wife (is she a performer too?) this can create a great opportunity if understood and utilized properly.


Yes she is a performer. She does stilt walking (with associated make up and costuming - mostly fantasy characters she creates on her own), aerial acrobatics, fire performances, some other light circus skills, and we do a sideshow act together.

We're doing our best to leverage the relative lack of competition as best we can. She's pretty good at gig hounding and building client relations and she's developed several solid connections that yield consistent gigs which is great. Honestly she's well ahead of me in that regard due to the time I took off to rethink my business strategies.

To this:
Quote:
I also think for the type of performer you are WitchDocchris you have an easier chance than if you were just another typical faceless magician in the crowd.

Quote:
Not saying you should change your name, but I can picture some in my area running from someone named Witchdoctor. LOL.


Witch Doctor Productions is the umbrella term I use for any entertainment I do on my own. My stage name is Christopher Strange, because my actual last name is difficult to pronounce when seen written out, and difficult to spell when heard said out loud, and I got tired of people stumbling over it. So I am Christopher Strange, the Witch Doctor.

I've had people cross themselves before, but generally people are just intrigued. In Southern PA we still have a strong tradition of Powwows and other folk practices, not to mention a huge pagan/voodoo community. It's not as uncommon for someone to be into esoteric things out here as one may guess.

Ok -

So to address the general points that have been brought up (and ignoring the side tracks) -

I always do my best to make an excellent first impression. Generally any time I'm outside my own house I consider myself to be performing, or in the least, building my reputation. So I dress the part and assume anyone who sees me may be a potential client, and behave in accordance with that mentality. Luckily for me, my stage persona is very close to my normal one, so it isn't terribly taxing to do this.

I don't really have theater training at all. I'm slowly learning about lights, set building, and sound engineering - For the most part my shows are very minimal because it both suits my aesthetic as well as making things very easy for everyone involved. My clients know that I am someone who basically just needs to be shown to the performance space and then I take care of the rest.

A big reason for that is that my ideal performance scenario is a small parlor sized venue. I like to imagine it may feel like what Victorian folks felt when they gathered to talk about the subjects they enjoyed, except I'm leading the way the whole time.

And, finally, to answer Mindpro's questions -
Quote:
What is it you are shooting for?
What is your definition of success as it pertains to what you are seeking?
What do you see as your obstacles?


My short term goals (meaning over the next couple/few years) are simply to establish regular shows in multiple venues, spread out over a few nearby cities so as not to burn through my potential ticket-purchasing audiences. Those shows will ultimately be parlor-sized, maybe 30-60 people, with perhaps two to four shows on a given weekend.

When all is said and done, I would consider myself to be successful if I essentially made the bizarre mentalism version of Chamber Magic. Meaning a regular show, in a nice venue, for an intimate audience of up to maybe 60/70 people, for premium ticket prices. Sold out months in advance would also be quite nice. I don't want to have to spend all my time traveling. Alternatively, or perhaps concurrently, I would like to own said venue and be able to host other performers on days when I am not performing, but that is something I don't even know enough about yet to consider planning.

My obstacles are primarily my own lack of knowledge. While the other performers in the area are frustrating, ultimately I do know that as long as I keep plugging away and presenting an excellent value to my clients I'll be fine. What I struggle with is the marketing/business side of things and trying to get into the good graces of local venues and event coordinators. And also trying to get myself in front of audiences without burning out a relatively small population. I want people to be excited to see my show, not just thinking "oh, that guy again".
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
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