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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » What is the holy grail in card magic (42 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JoshDude849
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That's pretty much the entire idea.
Pop Haydn
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Entertaining the audience is not the grail. It is just the first step.
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Entertaining the audience is not the grail. It is just the first step.


I agree. Astonishment needs to be part of the result. But I'd love to hear a pro's take on it. Please tell us more!
ryanshaw9572
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If there is a holy grail, I don’t want to know what it is.
vinsmagic
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Think of any card now deal down to any number and that card is the thought of card
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
ryanshaw9572
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You could just hope it works and then film until it does. Anything goes in magic nowadays, right? (Sarcasm)
Mr Salk
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There is an interesting split of folks that interpret The Answer as a Mental or Physical grail.
Does the grail defy the Mind, or Nature?
.


.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, vinsmagic wrote:
Think of any card now deal down to any number and that card is the thought of card


Think of any card, turn over the top card. It is the thought of card.
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, vinsmagic wrote:
Think of any card now deal down to any number and that card is the thought of card


Think of any card, turn over the top card. It is the thought of card.


OK, work with me here! Since the routine is generally billed as ANY card at ANY number, then there is certainly no reason why the spectator couldn't choose 1 as their number, right? So that would be the exact effect you describe.
The Burnaby Kid
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Mathematically it's the same, but conceptually it's a bit different. The rationalization for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the top of the deck isn't going to be the same for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the 19th position (or whatever).

Not that I think ACAAN is necessarily the better trick.
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Pop Haydn
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I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


In the future, screens will be so slim and bendable you can make a stack of 52 that exactly mimic a deck of playing-cards.
.


.
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.


The latter effect is known as Universal Card. You probably knew that but others might not.
The Burnaby Kid
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Tortuga,

Actually, I was thinking of a generic multiplication of one card into several. It can be very startling, and is one reason why asymmetrical transpositions can play so strong.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.


I think the Chicago Surprise comes close. The idea is a Holy Grail--something that truly seems impossible. If attainability is important, then it isn't much of a grail. Man's reach should exceed his grasp. Personally, I have never thought ACAAN is a strong concept.
Mr Salk
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The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.
.


.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


What trouble are you referring to?
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Tortuga,

Actually, I was thinking of a generic multiplication of one card into several. It can be very startling, and is one reason why asymmetrical transpositions can play so strong.


Gotcha. I'm not a huge fan of assymetrical transpositions unless there is motivation in the presentation.
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions....
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