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Pop Haydn
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I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?
Mr Salk
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On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


In the future, screens will be so slim and bendable you can make a stack of 52 that exactly mimic a deck of playing-cards.
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.
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.
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Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.


The latter effect is known as Universal Card. You probably knew that but others might not.
The Burnaby Kid
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Tortuga,

Actually, I was thinking of a generic multiplication of one card into several. It can be very startling, and is one reason why asymmetrical transpositions can play so strong.
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Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?


Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.


I think the Chicago Surprise comes close. The idea is a Holy Grail--something that truly seems impossible. If attainability is important, then it isn't much of a grail. Man's reach should exceed his grasp. Personally, I have never thought ACAAN is a strong concept.
Mr Salk
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The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.
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Pop Haydn
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On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


What trouble are you referring to?
Tortuga
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On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Tortuga,

Actually, I was thinking of a generic multiplication of one card into several. It can be very startling, and is one reason why asymmetrical transpositions can play so strong.


Gotcha. I'm not a huge fan of assymetrical transpositions unless there is motivation in the presentation.
Tortuga
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On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions....
Mr Salk
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On Aug 31, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions....


I concur. I'm suggesting the more esoteric responses are answering a more universal question about magic. Not a bad question itself.
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Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Aug 31, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 31, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions....


I concur. I'm suggesting the more esoteric responses are answering a more universal question about magic. Not a bad question itself.


Could you explain a bit more about your position. I am not clear what you are saying and how it applies to this question.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Aug 31, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 31, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 31, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.


Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions....


I concur. I'm suggesting the more esoteric responses are answering a more universal question about magic. Not a bad question itself.


Could you explain a bit more about your position. I am not clear what you are saying and how it applies to this question.


I roll a lovely assistant in a giant Ace of spades and cut them in half, then join them again for a whole assistant and a giant Queen of Hearts. I'm suggesting this isn't card magic unless we bend definition beyond reason.
I like the op question as an interesting exercise but without borders it becomes Name a Miracle.
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Pop Haydn
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What sort of borders do you recommend? What sort of card trick would make a Holy Grail? What is the most powerful effect that can be accomplished using playing cards? Why is that not worth considering? The tricks I suggested are real magic effects. Are you saying there is no way to accomplish these effects?
magicfish
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On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Mathematically it's the same, but conceptually it's a bit different. The rationalization for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the top of the deck isn't going to be the same for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the 19th position (or whatever).

Not that I think ACAAN is necessarily the better trick.

The effect isn't that the magician "got it there" in either scenario.
The Burnaby Kid
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On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Mathematically it's the same, but conceptually it's a bit different. The rationalization for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the top of the deck isn't going to be the same for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the 19th position (or whatever).

Not that I think ACAAN is necessarily the better trick.

The effect isn't that the magician "got it there" in either scenario.


I wasn't talking about the effect. I was talking about the suspicion that can undermine the effect which we need to deal with.
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Mr Salk
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On Sep 1, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
What sort of borders do you recommend? What sort of card trick would make a Holy Grail? What is the most powerful effect that can be accomplished using playing cards? Why is that not worth considering? The tricks I suggested are real magic effects. Are you saying there is no way to accomplish these effects?


Considering questions of possibility is always a worthwhile endeavor to push art and science forward. I'm personally reading a narrow interpretation of card-magic that excludes alternate forms such as stage and mentaliam. I'm familiar with your astonishing work and meant no affront.
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Pop Haydn
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I took no offense. I am talking about card magic. I am perfectly willing to talk about just close-up card magic. The questions are still the same. I just am not sure what you are saying.
kShepher
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I think the holy grail in magic is to put smiles and the sense of amazement on your spectators faces....regardless of technique.

If magicians are your audience, then that statement might be modified.
Pop Haydn
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On Sep 6, 2019, kShepher wrote:
I think the holy grail in magic is to put smiles and the sense of amazement on your spectators faces....regardless of technique.

If magicians are your audience, then that statement might be modified.


I would think that that is the barest and most basic requirement of performing magic.

Just a nice drinking cup; not the grail.
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