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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » EG to EG Change (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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Coin switches done as open effects are vulnerable to backtracking. If you do something and then show something happened - it's fair to presume the audience will consider a cause and effect connection. Maybe you can sell the "shake shake shake - and the copper coin now looks sliver" notion. More often it makes sense to convey "doing the magic" as something apart from setting things in place before you do the magic. Look at Al's Matrix routine or his "Osmosis" as examples.

The billiards prop was designed to let the performer start with one ball and have three more appear one at a time - one handed. There's another sequence where you seem to pass a ball back and forth through your knee that involves moving your hands in a large motion and coordinated timing. These are special cases. The guy who pretty much invented that trick used the methods to emphasize that each billiard was produced from an empty hand and each billiard was in fact a solid object. You can find more about that in Modern Magic. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Al Schneider
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There is gold here.

The audience observes then rewinds and views the events in their head.
During the observation step, the action may appear as magic.
This is where most magicians live.
But that is not where the spec sees the magic.
They see it when they rewind and review.
The clever magician controls where the spec rewinds from.
Only those interested in the spec experience will understand this.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
vinsmagic
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I don't get it why is there over analyzing... MBS work is for the real people not for a camera the shaking is part of his effect, and he can perform do this effect without shaking his hands .

I would love to see some of you do a coin transpo without some kind of misdirection;
vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
countrymaven
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I highly respect those against waving etc. But from my 40 plus years of performing magic for real people, the following is true.
If I drop a coin in my left hand, closing it, and open it, and the coin has changed color, it is ok. But if I wave my hand
with no visible move and lightly, and it changes, it is more magical to them.

So it really has to do with context. Does the wave seem like something to hide a clumsy move or can it be used to make it more visual and magical?

Again, lets all be patient. We may not all agree. But we all can learn something from the discussion if it remains a DISCUSSION.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2019, Ray Haining wrote:
The motivation for waving the hand during a coin change is that the larger motion hides the smaller motion (the sleight)...

This notion - action motivated by method rather than concern for audience/effect is where our discussion goes awry.

Some folks used handkerchiefs in context. Rather than ask someone to hold a coin directly they offered the item in a clean hank. Do you have a clean hankerchief? If not, check this one for trap doors and lipstick stains. Clean? Okay, please hold this coin.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Ray Haining
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 13, 2019, Ray Haining wrote:
The motivation for waving the hand during a coin change is that the larger motion hides the smaller motion (the sleight)...

This notion - action motivated by method rather than concern for audience/effect is where our discussion goes awry.


A larger, visible motion concealing the execution of a smaller, hidden motion is a standard subterfuge in magic.

But you left out the rest of what I had to say:

"Waving, or shaking, the hand is used for visual, spellbound-type coin changes ... Its purpose is actually to make it seem that there is no motion at all, that the coin stays in the same position at the fingertips and magically changes and that the waving is what causes the change."
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, Ray Haining wrote:
..."Waving, or shaking, the hand is used for visual, spellbound-type coin changes ... Its purpose is actually to make it seem that there is no motion at all, that the coin stays in the same position at the fingertips and magically changes and that the waving is what causes the change."

In spellbound (the first three changes) the hand holding the coin remains motionless while the other hand appears to wave over the coin. Telltale thumb motion adjusting grip on the coin can ruin the illusion.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Al Schneider
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Curious!

Some tell me I am wrong because I am old fashioned and the new breed is advancing coin technology.

Some tell me I am wrong because it has been a staple for over 40 years.

Some tell me I am wrong because I say others are wrong.

I have done several shoots at L&L. After one a lady in the audience said to me, “I have been to many of these shows and with the performers I always see something funny. With you the magic happens and I don’t see anything funny.”

What prompted that statement?

I strongly suggest the new or old performers seek what the audience really sees when you do magic. I attempt to go into depth about this in my column in the September Genii issue that you should be getting about now.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
countrymaven
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Again, I highly respect the masters writing here. But I also think that referring to "what the audience really sees" is a totally unscientific notion. There is no objectivity.

I get paid for my performances. To me, instead of using a subjective gauge of what "the audience sees", I do this. I keep tweaking things until I see what makes them truly believe they have seen a miracle. There is no substitute for this. Much of what is classic and good ol magic should be kept in a drawer and not shown to audiences. Not all of it. I am not asking you to agree with me. I appreciate everything you all have said. I will definitely consider it over time. But I will stand by this again: if the choice is between covering up something and have it change, or doing a slight wave (without hand shenanigans and obvious sleights happening) and having it change, the latter is ALWAYS THE MOST MAGICAL. To my audiences. and to what they see. When my audiences act like they have seen a true miracle, I stop changing magic as much. I leave it there.
countrymaven
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A case in point. One of the most magical looking transformations in magic is "Money Shot" by Mickael Chatelaine.
It happens in the blink of an eye. It is a minor miracle. He uses a slight wave. Case is closed.

Another transformation that is covered or put in a tin tube and a wand waved over does not compare. (exaggerating here ok?).

The case is closed. Because even in this routine, he waves it lightly. AS I said, if you can slightly wave an object (and not have a huge wave, and a funky monkey sleight obviously being pulled off), it can be a miracle. I don't want to be such a purist and theorist that my theory does not allow me to do what the spectators both see and remember as a miracle. I respect people's opinions. But I have to choose what is miraculous in my spectator's minds, in order to get paid and to do part of my job as a magician.
Al Schneider
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With all this I would like to make a point.

ENTERTAINMENT IS SENIOR TO MAGIC TECHNOLOGY.

As a performer especially a pro, your worth is measured by your ability to entertain and get gigs.

The quality of magic supports the quality of the performance.

I am not a performer. I am a magic technician. There are many aspects to performing magic. I am singling out one.

Kinda what bugs me is some that blow their horn about their great magic is that they don't care what their audience thinks.

There is vastly more to doing magic than mechanical moves. Vastly more.

Many of these guys do not consult the true opinions of what an audience thinks.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
countrymaven
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I totally agree, Al. I am a comedy magician. So entertaining through comedy and magic is my core way of entertaining.
Yes. The greatest mysteries in magic could even be boring if there was no entertainment value to them. That is the great challenge of modern magic: finding a way to make it a high level of entertainment to modern audiences. Some are doing it.
Signet
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Mr. Schneider,
It was not my intent to offend you or anyone else on this forum. Your accolades in the field of magic are well known and unquestionable. I am an amateur. That being said, I know what appears magical to my eye. MB's coin work is at the top of the list. It just makes me smile each and every time I see it. If the magic occurs in the mind of the spectator, well that's definitely happening for me.
Al Schneider
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Signet

You are making my point.

You are focusing on what rings your bell.

Should not the focus be on what rings the audience's bell?

There are two sides to the magic wall.

What we see and what the audience sees.

The views are drastically different.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
...I respect people's opinions. But I have to choose what is miraculous in my spectator's minds, in order to get paid and to do part of my job as a magician.
With respect, real mind reading is difficult. Choosing what someone else believes is also difficult. An easier path is to listen to what they report as magical when they describe something you did to someone who was not there.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Al Schneider
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Some see the sun go around the earth.

Some know the earth goes around the sun.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Jonathan Townsend
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Some want to propagate a model with a flat earth covered by a dome with projected sky story.

We need to focus on getting from what we actually do to what the audience believes about what they saw.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
countrymaven
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Circular reasoning exists when no matter what the evidence is, there is some self justification for one's own views. You can't be wrong--you can always appeal to a higher knowledge than what others can discern.
One of the best ways to do circular reasoning is to assume only you are a guru. You alone can define what the audience is really seeing.
Of course this is a total fantasy of someone's imagination. At least I would suggest it is a strong possibility.

Any performing magician would already know and agree with what I stated above. a slight shake, or wave, with an object, if it is organic, and not smelling of a clumsy cover for a sleight, can be quite magical. If combined with a sudden change, vanish, etc. But of course I am wrong because I have not correctly defined what an audience is seeing according to someone else's subjective update defining this.

So I bow out of the circular reasoning in this thread.
Jonathan Townsend
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For your amusement:

When I first got the sleight working it was something to do after doing the chest level display and then relaxing that arm to bring it down as focus was shifted to something else, say picking up a different coin from the table with the other hand. Words, then eyes, then reach. The sleight would happen at the bottom of the action before moving that hand back up into attention frame. I demonstrated this sleight at a Saturday gathering. JerryD asked whether the sleight could be done without the arm swing. Of course it can but you need some plausible cover for the second the coin is not in plain view. Thing is I really wanted my work to avoid abrupt visible actions or fidgety habits. If you don't mind apparently closing your hand for a moment - fingertip rest pretty much takes care of your transitions. That means having a closed hand rest-position. I settled on adopting a coin turnover at the fingertips as part of hold/hide, sort of Ramsay Subtlety for the fidgety. Not up at chest level since that was gonna be one of Geoff's surprises when he published.

Others, from KainoaH at first to GiocomoB more recently, have done wonders with EG and updated the Shaw sleights for modern closeup use.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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