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Tortuga
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Thanks, I knew Mike would know how to do the probability on this one. Personally, I would have a full deck PLUS an extra dupe, so it would be a 53 card deck. Or it could be even greater if a Joker or two were left in the pack.
That would then make it even more unlikely.

Still, I like the idea of keeping it separate until needed or ditching it after using it.
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Dupes are lazy magic.


Do go on.


Dupes and marked-cards are the first solutions children and laymen think of for card-magic.
It's hard work to structure effects to negate those possibilities.


If a trick presents one easy solution, such as, “He used a duplicate,” then you’re performing a poorly structured trick.


I'd add a qualifier to this... if the trick presents an easy solution like using a duplicate, and you haven't routined around that suspicion, then you've got a poorly structured trick. Case in point: Hofsinzer's Everywhere and Nowhere.
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Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
I'd add a qualifier to this... if the trick presents an easy solution like using a duplicate, and you haven't routined around that suspicion, then you've got a poorly structured trick. Case in point: Hofsinzer's Everywhere and Nowhere.


I'm inclined to say that that's a fool's errand, but that's a matter of taste — something I won't presume of you, Mr. Burns.
gkfreed
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I keep a duplicate that is also a marked Breather. This makes it simple to find (for getting in place or for getting
getting rid of).
Tortuga
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On Aug 28, 2019, gkfreed wrote:
I keep a duplicate that is also a marked Breather. This makes it simple to find (for getting in place or for getting
getting rid of).


Makes sense!
Mr Salk
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To echo BK, I personally have some credibility issues with dupes.
If you get burned with a dupe the follow-up question is How is it your freely-chosen card? Oh....
.


.
warren
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Some interesting points being raised, Mr Salk if you combine sleight of hand with the use of a dupe it's definitely not lazy and I've seen some exceptionally strong magic done with dupes that has floored the spectators so I guess it's down to how you incorporate them. I've yet to use a dupe personally however I am tempted to give it ago just to try the routine out for myself.

Recently Craig Petty posted a video on a facebook magicians forum where he had four spectators each cut to a card which turned out to be the four 10's or something I can't quite remember which however two of the 10's were identical.
The spectators were all so amazed that they had all cut to the 10's that nobody picked up on the fact that two of them were identical. In fact I don't think that I even picked up on it. However that may have been that I wasn't really paying that much attention however one of the other magician in the forum who had watched the video did pick up on it and mentioned it in the thread.
Craig went onto say that he always kept a dupe in his deck and in his rush to set up the effect he set up using the dupe by mistake hence my recent interest in the subject.
I do believe with a bit of thought you could brush off the extra card if it got found by a spectator as long as you hadn't used it prior to him spotting it
Mr Salk
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On Aug 28, 2019, warren wrote:
I do believe with a bit of thought you could brush off the extra card if it got found by a spectator as long as you hadn't used it prior to him spotting it


There are strong-effects with dupes and brush-off is always an option for professionals.
Dupes aren't to my taste for given reasons, but I'd never suggest successful magicians follow my lead.
.


.
warren
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On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, warren wrote:
I do believe with a bit of thought you could brush off the extra card if it got found by a spectator as long as you hadn't used it prior to him spotting it


There are strong-effects with dupes and brush-off is always an option for professionals.
Dupes aren't to my taste for given reasons, but I'd never suggest successful magicians follow my lead.


Thanks for your input it's much appreciated Smile
Rupert Pupkin
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On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
To echo BK, I personally have some credibility issues with dupes.
If you get burned with a dupe the follow-up question is How is it your freely-chosen card? Oh....


Can't this be said for any secret prop?

The trick is to not get burned Smile
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
To echo BK, I personally have some credibility issues with dupes.
If you get burned with a dupe the follow-up question is How is it your freely-chosen card? Oh....


Can't this be said for any secret prop?

The trick is to not get burned Smile


Of course. That is why I think this debate is silly. Ed Marlo had a famous ace cutting routine with multiple duplicates. I guess he was lazy.

Substitute duplicates for double facers or double backers. We shouldn't use them either? MacDonald's Aces is verboten?

Any gimmick that enhances an effect is worthwhile. It is up to the performer to keep its presence secret.
Cain
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I used a dupe when I was a couple of years into sleight-of-hand, but ultimately dropped it. As far as I recall, it was only for a transposition effect (like the one Blaine performs in his first special, as previously mentioned). The trick will get strong reactions, especially when you're starting out and perform it for uninitiated friends, but I don't think it's particularly good magic. There are, what, four double-turnovers? You need to motivate having a card signed. You need to motivate putting the indifferent card in the spectator's hand. You need to motivate those double-turnovers (but won't). You need to manage people to avoid them from asking if they can peek the card before the "magic" happens. Off the top of my head, Sankey's "Back in Time" is superior.

Chris Mayhew has a trick called "Mr. Hand" where there's one selection, but he uses two indifferent cards. It's an interesting idea because it makes what's going to happen less predictable.
Now I use a mem-deck so a dupe is pretty much off limits.
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Doug Arden
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Gary Jones and Chris Congreave do pretty well with dupes.
magicfish
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On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Dupes are lazy magic.

Annemann would disagree.
Dupes are diabolical.
They must be used correctly.
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Dupes are lazy magic.

Annemann would disagree.
Dupes are diabolical.
They must be used correctly.


I agree! Dupes are a tool or weapon of astonishment. Knowing how to effectively use them is the key to success. Dismissing them is to lose out on opportunities to amaze.
Rupert Pupkin
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Hammers are a bad tool because I always hurt my thumb when I use one.
The Burnaby Kid
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Well, hammers can be a bad tool if you're not supposed to be using any tool at all.

Great. I've just turned into Jonathan Townsend.
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JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Rupert Pupkin
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On Sep 1, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Well, hammers can be a bad tool if you're not supposed to be using any tool at all.

Great. I've just turned into Jonathan Townsend.


At least Jonathan usually has a decent point to make Smile
The Burnaby Kid
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Ouch. Kitty got claws.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Tortuga
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It boils down to this. Some here express fear of duplicates while others are purists and consider those that use them lazy. To those afraid, how do you do magic at all? Learn how to manage props and your audience. People can grab your Himber Wallet, your Chinatown Half, whatever. So what's the difference? For the purists, fine, don't use dupes, but throw away your gaffed coins, TT, etc. while you are at it.
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