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Mike Powers
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"Ouch. Kitty got claws." LOL!

M
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
To those afraid, how do you do magic at all? Learn how to manage props and your audience. People can grab your Himber Wallet, your Chinatown Half, whatever. So what's the difference? For the purists, fine, don't use dupes, but throw away your gaffed coins, TT, etc. while you are at it.


It's really not quite this easy.

Maybe Whit will chime in on this one, I don't know. But, to inadequately speak on some of the things he's talked about, the experience of magic is such that the memory of it can be very similar to a ghost story. You tell your experience to somebody else, and if they're interested but doubtful, they'll try to find holes in the story. A huge part of our job, as magicians, is to make sure that there are no holes.

The compromise involved in using a dupe is really different from the compromise involved in using a TT. When it comes to the ghost story, one of the holes might be "He was probably using trick cards." Effective ways of dealing with this suspicion are (a) use a borrowed deck, or a deck provided by the venue, (b) use a deck that's thoroughly examined by the spectator, or (c) forego the use of cards at all. There's rationales behind all of these, but since this is the Workers' forum, we'll assume (c) is out.

So, we're with (a) or (b). The skillset and compromise that's required to work with a dupe in this situation is actually no joke.

First, (a) is going to have the potential hassle of our dupe not matching their cards, in which case we'll need to be very careful about how we're taking advantage of that dupe. Now, such tricks exist, and have for a long time (ECT has its own section that might be of interest), but really, most of the common stuff involving stranger cards usually ends with the nature of the card being perceived as part of the effect (eg: Chicago Opener, Daryl's Burned Card, etc.). Otherwise, you might get further using a trick that involves smuggling in a double-facer.

Meanwhile, even if you're lucky that your dupe matches the cards, now you're stuck with (b), which is trying to figure out a way to load and ditch that card so that you're left clean. If it were easy to do this, we wouldn't have so many weird ways of getting around it (eg: the routining of Hollingworth's Voodoo Card on the Paul Harris DVDs).

Is any of this worth the hassle? It depends upon how much value you put on "He was using MY CARDS!"

Meanwhile, a TT is a TT -- it must remain invisible, and the challenges are there no matter what. At least with a deck of cards one can just pull out a deck and work FASDIU.

Note that none of this is an argument against using dupes, so much as it is talking about not getting caught with dupes. A lot of the time the solution for this is to just git gud, but of paramount importance first and foremost is to understand a thing for what it is.
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Tortuga
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I'm gonna drop the subject. I never said anything about borrowed decks. So bringing that in as an argument is specious. A gimmick is a gimmick. Whether seen or unseen both must be managed.
The Burnaby Kid
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Aw, I'm not trying to chase you off. My bad if it's coming across that way.

Yeah, I brought up borrowed decks, but it was really to highlight the differences between the various suspicious tools we might use.

It's a good conversation! You don't have to drop anything. Unless you've got a sick beat, in which case, feel free.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Tortuga
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No, we're cool. Nice discussion.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Dupes are lazy magic.

Annemann would disagree.
Dupes are diabolical.
They must be used correctly.


Annemann is dead and so is the era of dupes. I like a great deal of his work and ideas, but much of his repertoire wouldn't pass modern children.
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Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Annemann is dead and so is the era of dupes.


What was the era of dupes and why is it dead?
Rupert Pupkin
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It just strikes me as odd to dismiss a duplicate card wholesale, given that it’s SO general purpose. Even if one considers a duplicate card simpleminded or unsubtle (most hidden magic methods are), it should never be the sole deception in a trick. All methods should consist of layered deceptions. This is 101 stuff, folks.
Jonathan Townsend
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The question is fair. Add some lessons learned when loose cards or gaffs get damaged. Better to keep them in a pack. Thing is once you figure out how to carry one pack you may was well have a few in your jacket ( inside pockets and check out Gertner's Gravity Switch Smile ). That leaves being prepared and carrying one pack that's intact. Any other props (decks etc.) get brought out after some opening number.

Borrowed deck? It's all good till you get handed a collectors item with square corners and an iffy finish..or something in bridge size with crayon marks and gold edges. I've seen too many cards dropped, smeared, splashed, or bent to even think about FASDIU. That's were I wound up.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Tortuga
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Ok, first there was no era of dupes. Strawman.

Here's a way to "fix" many of the concerns that have been raised. Just use two matching Jokers. If they grab the pack and find two, so what? Decks have two Jokers. They don't know whether they are supposed to match or not.
Mr Salk
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On Sep 1, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Ok, first there was no era of dupes. Strawman.

Here's a way to "fix" many of the concerns that have been raised. Just use two matching Jokers. If they grab the pack and find two, so what? Decks have two Jokers. They don't know whether they are supposed to match or not.


I don't build strawman as I'm not arguing, just pontificating. Eras are defined by fashion and flavour and changing sensibilities in audiences. Dupes are bygone for good reasons. There are surely plenty of cool effects to cull from the dustbin, but Dupes are seriously tattered.

Jokers are an abomination but that's another rant.
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magicfish
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[quote]On Sep 1, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Dupes are lazy magic.

Annemann would disagree.
Dupes are diabolical.
They must be used correctly.


Annemann is dead and so is the era of dupes. I like a great deal of his work and ideas, but much of his repertoire wouldn't pass modern children. [/quote

Do you believe the garbage you spew?
magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Ok, first there was no era of dupes. Strawman.

Here's a way to "fix" many of the concerns that have been raised. Just use two matching Jokers. If they grab the pack and find two, so what? Decks have two Jokers. They don't know whether they are supposed to match or not.


I don't build strawman as I'm not arguing, just pontificating. Eras are defined by fashion and flavour and changing sensibilities in audiences. Dupes are bygone for good reasons. There are surely plenty of cool effects to cull from the dustbin, but Dupes are seriously tattered.

Jokers are an abomination but that's another rant.

If you don’t know how to use dupes effectively, that’s fine, but it’s on you to learn and study more.
magicfish
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A duplicate, a shell, a hand squeaker, an egg vase, IT, a TT, a pull, black art, topit etc., can all be used to bewilder and astonish by a skilled practitioner.
It is up to us to learn how to use our methods and techniques and apply them strategically, with subtlety, to fool and entertain. If the onlooker believes you are using a dupe then you arent using it correctly. The method must be indirect and the deception layered.
don't write something off because you don't understand it. Study how the greats utilize them- when, how, and why.
Annemann is dead yes. So are Vernon, Miller, Skinner, Cardini, Daley, Leipzig, Malini, Slydini. The fact they are no longer here is irrelevant. We are fortunate that they lived.
Cain
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
Ok, first there was no era of dupes. Strawman.

Here's a way to "fix" many of the concerns that have been raised. Just use two matching Jokers. If they grab the pack and find two, so what? Decks have two Jokers. They don't know whether they are supposed to match or not.


I don't remember the exact circumstances, but I definitely recall having a deck with two identical jokers and someone essentially asked about the Guarantee Joker (though I doubt she used the word "Guarantee"). Then again, I think it's more likely laypeople wouldn't know the word for the Clubs suit than the fact Bicycle packs come with non-identical Jokers.

A lot of tricks are amenable to pseudo-duplicates, which can be a superior alternative. As with anything, it's a matter of trade-offs. I perform trick that uses a duplicate, but on rare occasions because it's part of a routine that allows me to remove it from play. Allan Ackerman has remarked to the effect that the more gaffs a trick requires, the less often you'll perform it. And there's the irony: I typically do not use gaffs BECAUSE I'm lazy. Ringing them in taking them out can be a pain. There are so many more things you can do with just a regular pack of cards.
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Tortuga
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I'm moving on to other topics. This thread has jumped the shark. If you don't like dupes, fine. You'll just miss out on some pretty cool stuff. But that's fine because there's plenty of other tricks to go around.
Pop Haydn
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Jimmy Grippo would have a card freely selected under the fairest circumstances and get a glimpse. Then, when it is being shown he secretly procured a duplicate from his card index, and would fry the hell out of everyone.
Mr Salk
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On Sep 2, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
I'm moving on to other topics. This thread has jumped the shark. If you don't like dupes, fine. You'll just miss out on some pretty cool stuff. But that's fine because there's plenty of other tricks to go around.

Reasonable. Not to my personal taste, or anyone else's for decades. If I bought an effect that used a dupe I'd demand a refund.
.


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Mr Salk
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I'm not the lone voice in the forest railing against dupes. The widespread usage of signed-pick is a direct refutation of the possibility of duplicates.
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Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
I'm not the lone voice in the forest railing against dupes. The widespread usage of signed-pick is a direct refutation of the possibility of duplicates.


And magicians like Guy Hollingworth and Michael Feldman have devised ways to use duplicates AND signatures, to remarkable results. A tool is only as smart as its wielder.
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