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Pop Haydn
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I'm seventy years old, Mr. Salk. I have been in magic since I was nine. I don't remember any "era" of dupes in my lifetime. I have over the years seen many magicians who have used dupes to great advantage; Jimmy Grippo as I mentioned. I really don't know what you are talking about. I don't know about any fads or periods in magic involving dupes. There is certainly not anything wrong with the principle when used judiciously.

The Intercessor inspired a rash of torn corner tricks. Is that what you mean?
Cain
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There's a difference between the OP's question about including a duplicate in one's otherwise regular, ready-to-go pack and whether or not duplicates should EVER be used. The second view is rather silly, and not worth much discussion. If it were true, then this trick would be "obvious" to spectators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3hNCLM5GrY It's a phenomenal routine, and not for the "lazy."

Pop: The Grippo trick sounds cool, but it's not using a single duplicate added to a regular pack. Again, it's a matter of a trade-offs, so what trick(s) would be worth including a dupe in a regular deck? That's an open question, and a personal question (as most people have different tastes), but I imagine the trick(s) would have to be pretty great to justify the addition of a non-standard card. A duplicate would allow you to perform that item, but then it would also frustrate your ability to perform a bunch of other tricks (including those that require exactly 52 cards).

The OP mentions a transposition, but there are a lot of great transposition effects that do not require a duplicate. Indeed, Salk is not wildly wrong if he says a duplicate is a common enough explanation for translocation-style effects.
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Jonathan Townsend
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After a few tricks where a card gets signed, destroyed, or given away, the pack starts to get a little quirky. Taking cue from the Grippo mention - that's also a way to manage your extra and/or prepared cards. Smile
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Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2019, Cain wrote:
There's a difference between the OP's question about including a duplicate in one's otherwise regular, ready-to-go pack and whether or not duplicates should EVER be used. The second view is rather silly, and not worth much discussion. If it were true, then this trick would be "obvious" to spectators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3hNCLM5GrY It's a phenomenal routine, and not for the "lazy."

Pop: The Grippo trick sounds cool, but it's not using a single duplicate added to a regular pack. Again, it's a matter of a trade-offs, so what trick(s) would be worth including a dupe in a regular deck? That's an open question, and a personal question (as most people have different tastes), but I imagine the trick(s) would have to be pretty great to justify the addition of a non-standard card. A duplicate would allow you to perform that item, but then it would also frustrate your ability to perform a bunch of other tricks (including those that require exactly 52 cards).

The OP mentions a transposition, but there are a lot of great transposition effects that do not require a duplicate. Indeed, Salk is not wildly wrong if he says a duplicate is a common enough explanation for translocation-style effects.


Thanks for all your explanation, Cain, but I was referring to Mr Salk directly about what he said:

"I don't build strawman as I'm not arguing, just pontificating. Eras are defined by fashion and flavour and changing sensibilities in audiences. Dupes are bygone for good reasons. There are surely plenty of cool effects to cull from the dustbin, but Dupes are seriously tattered."
Julie
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Jimmy Grippo would have a card freely selected under the fairest circumstances and get a glimpse. Then, when it is being shown he secretly procured a duplicate from his card index, and would fry the hell out of everyone.


I really like this. My concern with employing a dupe regularly is that by its very nature (that too perfect thingy?) the only solution for the onlooker (IF he/she is concerned with such matters) is the fact you are using a duplicate.

This Grippo approach would seem to offer a practical solution to the problem.

Julie
magicfish
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I like Bro. Hamman's The Doppelganger Card.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I'm seventy years old, Mr. Salk. I have been in magic since I was nine. I don't remember any "era" of dupes in my lifetime. I have over the years seen many magicians who have used dupes to great advantage; Jimmy Grippo as I mentioned. I really don't know what you are talking about. I don't know about any fads or periods in magic involving dupes. There is certainly not anything wrong with the principle when used judiciously.

The Intercessor inspired a rash of torn corner tricks. Is that what you mean?


I concur with the key-word: Judiciously

From my library I consider dupe-era defined as widespread usage of impossible-location (early 1900's). But the resurgence of torn-corner plots is also applicable.
I see a divide between using a dupe in a thoughtful/planned way as opposed to impromptu transpo/torn effects that are surely transparent to a modern-audience.

And personally I'd hate handing the deck to suspicious jackals to paw through between tricks. Best never to raise the specter of doubt.
.


.
Mike Powers
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Use it - palm it out - no worries.

Mike
Jonathan Townsend
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On Sep 3, 2019, Mike Powers wrote:
...palm it out - no worries.
Cards last longer if kept safe between performances. Smile
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 2, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I'm seventy years old, Mr. Salk. I have been in magic since I was nine. I don't remember any "era" of dupes in my lifetime. I have over the years seen many magicians who have used dupes to great advantage; Jimmy Grippo as I mentioned. I really don't know what you are talking about. I don't know about any fads or periods in magic involving dupes. There is certainly not anything wrong with the principle when used judiciously.

The Intercessor inspired a rash of torn corner tricks. Is that what you mean?


I concur with the key-word: Judiciously

From my library I consider dupe-era defined as widespread usage of impossible-location (early 1900's). But the resurgence of torn-corner plots is also applicable.
I see a divide between using a dupe in a thoughtful/planned way as opposed to impromptu transpo/torn effects that are surely transparent to a modern-audience.

And personally I'd hate handing the deck to suspicious jackals to paw through between tricks. Best never to raise the specter of doubt.

Yes, there is a divide. One is magic, the other isn't magic.
Nothing to do with the dupe. Only how it's used- which is what we have been trying to say to you.
A duplicate card is a diabolical weapon in the arsenal of a conjuror.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2019, magicfish wrote:
I like Bro. Hamman's The Doppelganger Card.
Interesting routine. And subtle use of the method(s).
Looking over the Kaufman writup in "Secrets of... " - when do you ask for the counted cards back?
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JoeHohman
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Dear Mr. Salk,

"Much of Annemann's repertoire wouldn't fool modern children." Why would you even write this? Up until this point, I thought you were keeping your disagreement fairly civil. This was strictly inflammatory.

Shame on you; tearing down someone else does NOT build you up. I expected better from you.
JoeHohman
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P.S.

"Suspicious jackals."

THIS is how you get along with your audience? From what kind of mind-set are you operating?

I hope this does not come across as my picking a fight with you; I have respected a good number of your previous posts. I hope you are having a better day.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2019, JoeHohman wrote:
Dear Mr. Salk,

"Much of Annemann's repertoire wouldn't fool modern children." Why would you even write this? Up until this point, I thought you were keeping your disagreement fairly civil. This was strictly inflammatory.

Shame on you; tearing down someone else does NOT build you up. I expected better from you.


Let's not appeal to dead authorities.
As I said I'm a huge fan of much of Anneman's work, but let's not pretend that everything published under his name is beyond reproach.
There is absolutely "filler" and it should be examined frankly.
.


.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2019, JoeHohman wrote:
P.S.

"Suspicious jackals."

THIS is how you get along with your audience? From what kind of mind-set are you operating?

I hope this does not come across as my picking a fight with you; I have respected a good number of your previous posts. I hope you are having a better day.


Loathing an audience is a terribly negative mindset, and I work hard to avoid it.
I make concerted efforts not to insult their intelligence and debase my credibility. I consider Dupe-usage to be a tightrope over that chasm.
I can shake off being caught red-handed in the most compromising sleight, but a dupe is juvenile and shameful.
.


.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
but a dupe is juvenile and shameful.


You keep speaking in absolutes, as if this is true in every context.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:

Let's not appeal to dead authorities.

There is absolutely "filler" and it should be examined frankly.


Could you give us an example of Annemann's work that you consider filler?
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:

Let's not appeal to dead authorities.

There is absolutely "filler" and it should be examined frankly.


Could you give us an example of Annemann's work that you consider filler?


I'm sure not everything published under his name is his work, but 202 Forces includes some real dogs.
Some of the PMM impossible-location effects (dupes) are transparent, and the newspaper-predication effects are quaint but antiquated.
I'm still a huge Anneman fan, my point being that a magician's work is not sacred-text, especially because much is based on assemblages from the times.
.


.
Mr Salk
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Despite my efforts I've fallen into a trap of defending fallacious reasoning.
I apologize for spawning negativity. Deal on!
.


.
magicfish
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Salk wrote, "Let's not appeal to dead authorities"

What difference does it make weather they are alive or dead?
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