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funsway
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Ravenspur. Glad you recognize both the opportunities for "challenging concepts of the impossible" and the ethical components of the classroom.

In more than 20 years of doing magic in classroom settings I found that the most appreciated were those that made a lesson relevant --
the story and effect modified to apply to the lesson of the moment. Mental based or physical based is secondary the "attention and retention" model.

When shifting to 50 years of dealing with small business owners the impact is the same. Mental or physical - do it FOR THEM as a memory of challenging the impossible.

But, just going through the motions of a trick or using magic jargon or psychic hype does not make one a magician or mentalist any more than waving a textbook about makes one a teacher.

You seem to be called in the "other than standard" approach. Follow! Magicians yearn for the possible "30 year memory." You have a shot at 50 years or more. Choose wisely.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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TomB
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I am all ears and deeply respect the community here. But you have not put forth a persuasive argument that a mentalist is not just a specialized magician. I have heard loud and clear that mentalist want to separate themselves as not being magicians and are not doing tricks. They want you to believe that thru the mentalist five senses and using body language, and psychology they have a sixth sense. The goal is to astound and confound.

But it is all trickery and entertainment. Despite denying trickery, most lay persons know it is. They are asking, how did he do that, the same way they ask that of a good magician. Mentalists use IT powers to move eye glasses. Mentalist use a magic die for dynamic predictions. They bend forks. They use the calculator prediction. Mentalists reads minds by "guessing" names and pin codes. All the exact same ways magicians would.

Whenever put on the spot, the mentalist tries to dodge away. And when he cannot dodge, he gets the answer wrong. Again and again, they are always proven to NOT have any supernatural powers.

I understand that professional magicians typically perform just a few tricks really well. I get that mentalists are limited in scope of their mental tricks. Therefore, it is the amateur magician doing mental magic. As an illusionist would stick to stage magic.

After much consideration, this is what I have determined.

If a magician is an actor playing the role of a wizard, then a mentalist is a specialized magician that uses only mental magic but pretends to not be a magician.

The problem is if they admit mind reading is a trick, then the whole presentation is dumb. If they say they are supernatural, then people will call them frauds. They are really stuck in a pickle.

So to the OP, I would say go for mentalist if you want to be specialized in mental magic. It is not hard. But other mentalists would want you to be pure mental magic and not a Jack of all traits, as most hobbyist magicians are. So the question becomes, are you willing to give up the multiple bottle routine, where you have an object vanish and reappear, and ask the spectator, how it's done, then look him in the face and say, I am tricking you!
funsway
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TomB - a strange post since none of the offerings on this thread could be viewed as "put forth a persuasive argument that a mentalist is not just a specialized magician."

Certainly not mine to which you never respond directly. But, I agree with much of what you say, even if your intent is clouded.

and I doubt the phrase "After much consideration, this is what I have determined" as you obviously had this bias before you posted on this thread.

and I would have been silent, until you you claimed "and ask the spectator, how it's done"

If the result of your performance is this, then you have failed as a magician, mental magician, mentalist, conjuror, wizard, whatever.
Nit picking over terms and a labels or minor compared to the ability to create or sustain an illusion that a person can be more than they are right now.

Sorry that you seem hung up on a mission against mentalist vs magician that is only an illusion too.

Any suggestion that is is easy to perform any mystical art is ill advised in my opinion.
Whatever your choice of pretend magic, be the best in the world at what you do right now and here. There is no "easier than"

I do not "trick" anyone. But have expanded a person's concept of the impossible tens of thousands of time.
I do this every day. Please don't plunk me into some label of your convenience.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Ravenspur
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What's sad is guys who have been in the business for years who fall back on their authority because their arguments are incoherent, misleading, and pointless.

I don't know you, Mindpro, you may be the best magician on the planet. Your experience, however, is ultimately irrelevant when it comes to definition and argument. I can't fall back on my decades of my experience in magic, and I won't fall back on my decades of experience in fields more relevant to argument, to make my point. Instead, I'll offer this list of

Mentalism and mental magic are largely interchangeable terms. Trying to make people distinguish between the two is a fool's errand.

-Go to Vanishing and look under the categories of magic they sell.
-Go to Penguin magic and check out the categories of magic they sell.
-Go to Stefan Olschewski's Mentalism online store.
-Check out the Dyment's Deceptionary.
-Check out Taylor Imagineering.
-Google Derren Brown.
-Check out "The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy"

There may be times when it's useful to differentiate between mental magic and mentalism, but their meanings are going to be decided by the people who use the terms and their common usage, not by some forum curmudgeon.

What's sad is this forum is called "New to Magic." It's not called "Hell Week for Pledges to the Magic Fraternity." It's not "Requisite Hazing for Anyone Who Hasn't Been in Magic for 35 Years." It's not called "I'm More Experienced So I'm Right." You treat people new to magic with criticism for failing to agree with you. That, sir, is sad.


Finally, I'm honest about my experience and lack of expertise in magic. Anyone who reads my comments can see that and judge what I say accordingly. In some cases, my informed lack of experience may actually be helpful to people at a similar level.
Mindpro
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All of the information you are offering is from a very one-sided perception of mentalism. The watered down, magicians or magic communities adaptation and acceptance of mentalism. You both have very limited understanding of the art of mentalism seeming only from the limited perspective of magicians. Certainly not the mental arts community. All I was pointing out is that is only one small side to the world of mentalism and the reason I was pointing it out was the OP was trying to understand why he was told not to start with or possibly stay away from mentalism at this point. It was to offer the reasoning and an an understanding of a greater picture he has yet to experience.

This has nothing with throwing weight around as a professional. Yes, this is called New To Magic and it is not all just about tricks and performance. It is about setting up those new to magic with the full spectrum and understanding required at the beginning or foundational level.

It is apparrent that TomB has never seen or experienced a true mentalism show, perhaps just mental magic. His opinions and jaded perceptions are based on this. There is a huge difference. This is very offensive to those of us in the actual mentlaism and mental arts community. Then to offe rthes elimiting and jaded opions as advice to others is damaging. I have seen his very limited knowledge of several different topics on which he keeps offering advice on since becoming a new member here and I'm sorry, but some to much of it is poor advice not based on anything more than his opinions rather than a more complete or better understanding, or from a true industry perspective, but again rather than nothing more than his own (as we've seen here) opinions based on incomplete or very limiting experience or knowledge.

Listen, this is a very important and crucial place and time for beginners. There is a lot to take in, comprehend and understand. What no beginner needs is misinformation or blatantly poor information as they are trying to learn and form their foundation. Or being steered in the wrong direction, especially from someone with only limted knowledge themselves. This also points out there is a HUGE difference between opinion and facts. Any beginner (to magic or any other performing discipline) needs to learn and understand this. There is a time and place in the learning process for both, but again in the proper context.

Telling someone asking about mentlalism only opinionated information (based on limited knoledge and experience) that can be accepted as educational or fact is misleading and in my opion wrong.

If you are going to spew information, let's make sure it is factual and correct. The OP may not even realize it is just opinions as TomB has been trying to lead others since he arrived here and perhaps maybe he should be listening and doing some more learnng himself before offering such opinions as advice to others at their very crucial learning and researching point in their journey.

Part of learning performing is hearing what you may not want to hear. Learning what not to do as much as what to do. Welcome to the world of entertainment. Critique, criticism, and assistance may not always be easy to accept or understand, but it all plays a part in shaping us, growing our knowledge-base and experience, and ultimately becoming a better performer in both physical execution, and the more important understanding and reasoning behind the performance.

All of this IS helpful at a beginning level and I'm sure if you asked many others with more experience most would tell you they wish they would have had someone to tell them this when they were first beginning, and had such a resource as The Magic Café.
Ravenspur
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I'll let my comment, the substance of which you don't address, stand. God bless the original poster who asked a simple question and granted a lecture on how many mentalists can dance on the head of a pin! And pity the poor, original poster who can't separate fact from opinion or experience from inexperience, even when it's completely clear and labeled as such!

I've been an observer on more than one occasion of your opinion on the "mental arts," which is at best muddled, and has been challenged by more experienced people than I. As I understand it, you are some sort of booker of such acts, and presumably a performer or former performer of them. I think you said you have been doing this for 35 years or so. I don't know who you actually are, I don't know anything about you. The last time I followed your argument it was as garbled as it was this time.

As I take it, you want to separate people who do readings and truly think they read minds or fool people into thinking they read minds with people who do what mentalists like Derren Brown do. There are magicians, like Phedon Bilek, who do both in a nice, ethical way. Anyone who truly thinks they are psychic are not magicians. That's fine too. Instead of trying to define an exclude people, it would be much more productive to draw the line between these types of performers.

And as far as advice on the Magic Café goes, I've gotten good useful advice from people. At this point, I've also listened to dozens of interviews with the top magicians and mentalists in the industry, and they don't bother arguing about things they can't change. I've also received a lot of advice offline telling me to be careful who I listen to on here. Names weren't mentioned.
TomB
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Https://youtu.be/0nb7rHipYIk


Cap'n Sean performed the multiplying bottles and did just as I said. I would not say he is a failed magician. He was entertaining and despite telling the audience he is lying and how the trick is done, the audience was in awe, wondering how it was done. Most magicians, including Penn and Teller tell the audience it's all a trick and not supernatural. I would not say they are failed magicians.

I understand that we are frustrating you with our words. If we use a word incorrectly, please correct us. I know what an effect is, after Dick pointed me to Fitzkee, for a solid definition.

Fitzkee defined a trick as an individual feat of a magician, which ultimately includes the effect and the specific identifying object which the effect is accomplished. Or put simply, a trick is an effect performed with specific things or people.

But it is very frustrating to say the least to me for Funsway and Mindpro to deny they do tricks.

I have taken consessions to say pure mentalists stay in the realm of mental magic and do not perform other magic tricks. I have listed the most popular tricks mentalist use above. I would love Mindpro to explain to me how an exploding lightbulb is not a trick. We know they use tricks, but part of their gig is to deny doing any tricks so they can deny being a magician.

Funsway repeatedly states that he does not do tricks. At best, an experienced magician can say, I perform magic tricks that nobody knows the method to how it was performed. As such, the spectator leaves believing he saw the impossible as if the law of physics did not apply. Please note, he still did a magic trick.

Now if Funsway wanted to argue the secret of magic is much deeper than any one trick, and how it's to make the impossible seem real, I would whole heartedly agree.

I am quickly humbled by anyone who shows me something new (not how to do it, but a trick that fools me). Without selling book, or a DVD, or even a YouTube video, a professional webpage ect, it is hard to give any credit. One of the nice things about this forum is most people have at least one of those, allowing people to do their own research. Those that typically have demonstrated a skill, typically gain respect quickly.

So yes, we are relatively new to the forum. I am trying to learn. I also am a critical thinker. Everything needs to be proved to be correct. Opinions from experts matter more than opinions from the uninitiated. But we have to have clear definitions and we need to be intellectually honest. Otherwise, it just goes in one ear and out the other.

Finally, I am not saying all mentalism is easy. There are super, simple tricks like the calculator prediction or exploding lightbulb that I can teach my elementary school kid. Then, there are more complicated tricks which involve influencing a song in someone's head. Not necessarily hard, but definitley more involved. Some tricks take less than a second, others may take a team of people all day for the desired effect. A solid performer with a good presentation is entertaining to watch.

Anyone looking to do "mentalism" should attempt mental magic. It is not difficult to get started. If they enjoy it more than doing other tricks, and want to perform only mental magic, then they can call themselves a mentalist.
funsway
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"for Funsway and Mindpro to deny they do tricks." & "Funsway repeatedly states that he does not do tricks."

I see the problem - you do not actually read my posts. I never ever once said I do not do tricks, or claim that mentalists do not do tricks.

As a conjuror I use trickery, guile, and psychological ploys all the time. When doing mental based effects I use different forms of trickery.

What I said was that it is possible to do effects that appear to be mentalism that are not based on tricks or deception of any sort.
I asked the question of what should such effects be called. No answer.

Such effects are rare and not always appropriate to all settings. I'll be happy to send you a copy of "Close Call" as an example.
As noted, pendulum work is not a trick. Doesn't matter what you call yourself - still no trick involved.

I agree that most mentalism effects are based on trickery - insisting that the skill required must be higher than that of a conjuror.
I also agree with Mindpro that to be a good mentalist required a different skill set than that of the conjuror. - different, not always more profound.

Failed? I feel that is the result of your performance is a person asking "how was that done" then you have failed in your mission of forging a long term memory of
"must be magic." Other performers have a different objective, I guess. I never said anyone is a failed magician.

As always, what does the audience expect? If they only expect amusement and puzzles it is easy to hit that level. If they expect magic to occur it is more difficult.
For me, the challenge is to create the conditions under which magic is expected and does occur in their perception. Do they know trickery is involved? Of course.
Do they care? No! Do they attempt to figure it out? At first, maybe - later on, no.

Can I always achieve this result? No. Often I just do tricky/entertaining stuff and even train my service dog to do magic tricks.

At other times I demonstrate unusual or weird things where there is no trickery. Perhaps I am not a magician when doing that.
Observers call me a magician, but what do they know?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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TomB
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Quote:
Anyone who truly thinks they are psychic are not magicians. That's fine too

They are frauds. Is it really an opinion? Is it really jaded? I speak the TRUTH, which is factual. Harry Houdini would be on my side.

YouTube search mentalist failures. It's pure comedy.

I do not personally know any mentalists, MindPro is right.
The one famous mentalist that comes to mind is Israeli Lior Suchard. And when encountered by skeptics, he was proven to be a fraud, not having any mind reading ability. At best, he is a specialized magician that executes mental magic efficiently, even though mentalist deny themselves as being magicians.

If he is a bad representation of mentalists, then please let me know.

There is a reason why the Magic Café forum has a mentalist forum. They are performing magic. I am not even sure why saying that is being perceived as a bad thing.

Part of this forum is learning, growing, and self discovery - myself included. For instance, this post alone has made me realize I would never want to be a mentalist or any of my kids. I would never want my kids to lie to the audience and say they have supernatural powers. I have also realized that mentalist actually want the audience to believe they have supernatural powers and deny performing magic tricks. It is all good, I learned something, which is the point of the new to magic forum.

Despite being new, I do not think I have offered any bad advice. I may challenge traditions or accepted practice but my life experience had been usually correct. I have been thanked for my contributions on many occasions with a limited number of posts.

If anything, I am surprised the magic community has not come down hard on mentalism.

Funsway, I answered you in PM.

I am curious though to the original OP. Are you going to try mental magic?
WitchDocChris
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I haven't taken the time to read all of this page as it seems like the same arguments I always see when magicians want to decide what mentalism is.

I do want to address a point though:

Quote:
But it is all trickery and entertainment


Wrong. Categorically, demonstrably, wrong.

Mentalism does -not- require deception or trickery. A full show can be performed without lying or misleading the audience whatsoever.

There's your difference.

Magic requires deception. Mentalism does not.

They are totally separate approaches to the 'mystery arts'. Mentalism is absolutely not magic, and is absolutely not a 'subset' of magic. The only people trying to make that claim are magicians.

Just because very few people who are actually known practice actual mentalism, doesn't mean magicians can willy-nilly redefine it so they can try to get a slice of the pie. Want to be a mentalist? Learn the skills.
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Mindpro
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Exactly but of course newer magicians know it all.

There are many that have performed mentalism shows for years all without the use of magic or trickery or deceptions. And yes, they do these abilities for real - memory, hypnosis, pendulums, intuition, ESP, thought-reading, foreseeing or predictions, and some would agree (while I don't personally) readings of a variety of types to name just a few. All of these mental abilities, demonstrations, or "feats" can be done 100% without tricks or trickery for real.

Most magicians tricks give the illusion of hypnosis or the illusion of mentalism, but they are not in actuality.

As I said, you are believing that magicians mentalism (fake) is what mentalism and the mental arts are and you're are plain and simply wrong, sorry.

Things you are saying TonB - "But it is all tricker" is again simply incorrect. Again this is your opinion which as several here have stated is incorrect.

The stuff you are talking about such as the exploding lightbulb ARE magicians tricks, but they are not mentalism but only magicins mentalism or the magician's adapted definition of what magicians consider "mentalism." This is my whole point - the things you think and are claiming to be mentalism are not. But what I and others are saying here is there is mentalism that is not magicians tricks or magicians self-adapted definition of mentalism that is done for real. You came here to learn and be educated, then try comprehending this and not arguing about something you clearly have yet to learn experience or know anything about. Also asking others for examples is not their responsibility to do your education and research. Be appreciative f the information they are offering without expecting anything more. It's no one's job to "prove" anything to you. Simply be thankful for the insight they are offering.

And just FYI the mentalism forums here are for those accepting the fake mentalism or magic mentalism just like the Hypnosis section is for the pretty much the same - magicians trying to perform tricks that resemble hypnosis or fake hypnosis.

As for Ravenspur, you said "I've been an observer on more than one occasion of your opinion on the "mental arts," which is at best muddled, and has been challenged by more experienced people than I." Yes, again with magicians accepting the self-appointed limited magician's definition of mentalism. I always stop those kinds of discussion because it is almost always with an uneducated opponent that again only has accepted the limited or realigned definition from the magic world. So yeah, you don't have to look far here to find others to support this limited an incorrect definition of what actual mentalism is.

Point remains, there is real mentalism, it is not tricks and it can be quite entertaining, and yes, audiences to believe, expect it to be, and accept it as real.

Also, I am not here to "put forth an argument or convince you or anyone of anything other than to educate that the extreme limited definition of mentalisn is incorrect and not just as you believe it to be.

You also said, "I have heard loud and clear that mentalist want to separate themselves as not being magicians and are not doing tricks. They want you to believe that thru the mentalist five senses and using body language, and psychology they have a sixth sense. The goal is to astound and confound." This again couldn't be more wrong. Nothing like a hobbiest beginner telling us how all pro mentalists think act, and are. Again, wrong. You are showing your lack of knowledge and ignorance, sorry. Only magicians doing magician's mentalism use this belief and lame jusrtiication. It is not all trickery, again, your limited knowledge and understanding.

There is an entire world of entertainment you are missing. This is the problem with magic, there is no qualification or gatekeeper. Anyone can call themselves a magician who buys a kids magic set or Sven deck. Then they start to spew incorrect information about an actual industry they know very little or nothing about.


You also said, "Whenever put on the spot, the mentalist tries to dodge away." No, again, magicians doing pretend mentalism do this, not true mentalists. Your statement is again incorrect. I could literally dissect nearly every line of your posts explaining to you how your opinion-based posts and thoughts are either incomplete or incorrect.

TomB don't try to tell us "you are all ears" as it is more than evident you are not.
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Is Lior Suchard a master mentalist or a magician?
Banachek
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Quote:
On Sep 7, 2019, TomB wrote:
In fact, when a magician pretends to have supernatural powers they are usually outed and exposed and shunned pretty quickly. However, during the climb pretending to have real powers, they can get quite popular, ala Cris Angel.



Clarification....Criss Angel NEVER pretended to have real powers. In fact in interviews time and time again he said he did not. He even doubled the amount of money (an extra million) to one psychic if they could prove they had powers and also outed Geller and Callahan on Phenommenon. Now during an effect he would act like he did. Same as any mentalist that is performing. I do it, but I have disclaimers. You have to in the moment in order for it to feel it's realist.
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Ravenspur
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Mindpro,

Perhaps it would be helpful if you provided some specifics, your point would be more clear. Without dragging Banachek deeper into this conversation, I'd like to note he uses the term mentalist to refer to his own work. At this point, at least one of the people you are supposedly trying to educate (me) and perhaps TomB, is confused and you've insulted us for our misunderstanding. Here are some questions you could answer, if you want to clean things up:

Is John Edwards a mentalist?
Is Derren Brown a mentalist?
What's the difference between mental magic and mentalism?
Why does it matter ?
The Burnaby Kid
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There are a few obstacles when it comes to progressing from magic into mentalism.

First, you're got to really understand the difference between a reveal in magic and a reveal in mentalism. A good magic reveal is opening an envelope and removing a signed card that was previously seen outside the envelope. Assuming your method is deceptive, if the spectator asks "How did that signed card get in the envelope?" then you're fine, because that's the effect. With mentalism, though, the effect isn't that something got inside the envelope, and you don't want people asking "How did he get that word inside that envelope?"

Second, building on this, you need to understand that one of the key features is that the entertaining factor is the cause behind the effect. In magic, we tend to brush over this as unimportant because the surprise can often be strong enough to entertain on its own. With mentalism, though, because the result is often comparatively mundane, the strength comes from people's appreciation for what caused it. As Derren Brown said, you're supposed to be READING MINDS. You can't snap your fingers or wave a magic wand and show that the word in the envelope matches what they just said. You've got to literally dramatize the effect. This is one of the real problems with disclaimers. While ethical, they undermine the dramatic flow of what's happening. This means that you have to play in an area that's outside what magicians are used to. For many magicians it's ok if people call what you did a trick. For mentalists, though? Reducing what just happened to the performer's cleverness undermines everything.

Third, this leads us to credibility, which is where age and inexperience can be a problem. Since you're going to be spending some time dramatizing the cause behind the effect, you need to make it credible, or else it's going to come across as a waste of everybody's time. This goes beyond dramatizing it in a convincing way. If we're staying dramatically true, if you're a kid, and you can mentally pluck a thought from a spectator's head, then you can probably see all the thoughts inside a spectator's head. Wouldn't some of those thoughts be rather disturbing from a kid's point of view? Again, as Derren Brown has said, these things need to be taken seriously. That doesn't necessarily mean solemn, which is a function of tone, but it does mean serious, which means (amongst other things) that it survives cursory attempts to deconstruct it.

Fourth, in the same way that you've got to point towards a cause that helps your credibility, you've also got to point yourself AWAY from competing causes that undermine your credibility. This is one of the real ways that magicians tend to not get what mentalism is about. They take a card, you read their thoughts and find the card, that's mentalism, right? Well, if you can read minds, why the hell are you resorting to using cards? There's so much baggage there. At the very least, if you're going to use cards, look at what Osterlind does with the Radar Deck. He fans the cards towards the audience, they think of one they see, and then he not only tells them what card they were thinking of, he tells them what card they were ALMOST thinking of. The first could conceivably be explained away using some sort of card method, but the second? What's the trick there? Being able to leverage these additional details can really elevate what you're doing. It's also worth mentioning that doing what Osterlind did allows you to give serious credibility to the apparent dramatization of mental powers without resorting to test conditions.

There's more to talk about, but these four should be enough to show some of the massive differences between how magicians and mentalists view their craft.
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WitchDocChris
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John Edwards is a fraud, Derren Brown is a psychological illusionist (who, I believe, has picked up several genuine mentalist skills). Mental magic is magic tricks that focus on a mental theme, mentalism is the development of mental skills/arts above and beyond what normal people think is possible.

Quote:
Why does it matter ?


Because the muddying of the definition is part of what causes bad performances. The theatrical presentation of mentalism is completely different to the theatrical presentation of magic. They have different goals, and therefore require different approaches.
Christopher
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Mr. Woolery
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13 Steps starts with trickery. It includes a lot of different types of tricks. But one of those steps is all about what Corinda calls “Super Mentality.” No tricks, though there are hidden techniques. You really do memorize things the audience cannot. You really do calculate in your head faster than the audience believes possible.

Another step includes CMR. Which is, again, not a trick, but a skill done with a technique that isn’t explained.

That said, I have yet to see a performance by anyone other than Art Benjamin that is solely done with such skills. I have asked for names. I’d still like some good examples. If I understand Mindpro accurately, Bob Cassidy, Richard Osterlind, Banachek, Derren Brown, and anyone else who uses tricks would not actually be mentalists, though they claim to be. I’d like confirmation of this understanding. I’d also like to know a few names of people we could look up and watch so we’d know what a mentalist does for real.

Patrick
WitchDocChris
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I'm not tapped into that market as much as Mindpro is. However, I used to know quite a few people who practiced these skills as part of their religious practice (Which is when I learned the basis of much of my current material).

I'm working on a show that is based entirely on true skills, myself.

Look at older mentalists, though - from around Washington Irving Bishop's era. He built his career on CMR and that was a period when it was more common for a mentalist to build their entire career around displaying specific, real skills.
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Mr. Woolery
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So, just to grab an example, I typed in “ Mindpower hypnosis” as key words and got the following:

https://www.robinnlange.com/

Is this performer a real mentalist? I’m asking seriously.

While vague, hand-wavey terms make it easy to dismiss anyone who uses tricks, examples of those who don’t are important for understanding what we are talking about.

I already mentioned Art Benjamin. I presume that Memory Olympians, even if they are not entertainers, would still be mentalists. Or is that a term only for performing mnemonists? Kreskin famously finishes his shows by finding his check with CMR. A real skill, not relying on magic props or trickery. But if he uses tricks in earlier parts of his show, does that mean he isn’t a mentalist?

Patrick
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Burnaby Kid, thanks for clarifying these real and material differences. You're not talking in generalities, but in specifics that have a real impact on performance. You're stating explicitly what I have only understood subconsciously and helps me better understand some of my "performance" misfires.

WitchDocChris, thanks again for clarifying real and material differences between mental magic and mentalism. Part of the problem with definitions is they are too abstract and often hard to apply to the real world Common usage refers to mental magicians as mentalists. That's not going to change. The distinction matters to performance and learning, however, and that's a different story.

I understand you correctly,

If I create a prediction effect and present it the result of reading nonverbal signs on my participant's face, I'm doing mental magic.
If I appear to force a number on a visitor using a sort of "reverse" Hellstromic maneuver, I'm again doing mental magic.
If I do a cold reading, it is mentalism.

Finally, Patrick sums up well what's been missing from the discussion: who is, by these definitions, a mentalist and a mental magician? And what are some examples of mentalism and mental magic as performed?

And TWO QUESTION:

Is hypnotism mentalism?
Are Harry Lorayne's memory feats mentalism?
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