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WitchDocChris
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The skills themselves are not necessarily what have the value. The ability to perform those skills in an entertaining and engaging way is where the value is. That is something that is developed over the years.

Several of the things you mentioned, Funsway, could be developed into much bigger/more involved demonstrations if you took the time to study the skills more deeply and then started working on how to expand them. There were several performers in the Victorian era who did full shows using nothing but CMR.

I don't have videos, no. I wouldn't share videos of my own performances on these forums and I rarely watch any other performers.

My 'negative' reaction was because TomB has a distinct tendency to seemingly ignore previous posts and repeat himself, and I have no interest in engaging with someone who refuses to read and comprehend what's already been said repeatedly.

I also have little interest in typing out a dictionary. The information is, by and large, widely available to those who want to learn and the lists Mindpro has given is a perfect place to start the Google search.
Christopher
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Kong
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Is "real mentalism" so mysterious that no specific examples can be provided?
Ravenspur
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Kong,

It seems that "real mentalism" consists of performances based on the presentation of rarely developed mental skills that cause astonishment and wonder in those who witness it. There are many things that may qualify, ranging from cold reading to hypnosis to feats of memory. Most likely, someone will argue about it.

As opposed to magic, which also causes astonishment and wonder, but through trickery.
funsway
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:

My 'negative' reaction was because TomB has a distinct tendency to seemingly ignore previous posts and repeat himself,


But, I am not TomB. The question was why you are negative to MY posts and the unanswered questions I ask.
You may feel that the examples given adequately justify a high dollar ticket and long show. I do not. So, I ask rather than project, explore rather than ignore.

I have valued many of your posts in the past. Try a little respect and maybe you can learn something new also. No negative projection required.

Yes, many "real mentalism" effects could be expanded into larger venues by the right person. Perhaps someone will desire to and communicate with me off list.
BUT - MIndPro has indicated that special mentalists are doing this right now. You seem to agree, at least in part. No "somebody could" - NOW.

So, please give examples of someone doing it today - already holding an audience in thrall for an hour or more for big bucks using only "real mentalism." -

or patiently show my ignorant, lazy self where a previous post has done so. I have reread the entire thread . Nada!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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funsway
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Ravenspur wrote:
the presentation of rarely developed mental skills that cause astonishment and wonder in those who witness it.


back in the late 50's - early 60's Ed Sullivan would showcase individuals with such skills, e.g. extraordinary memory such as watching a train of 100 cars pass by and be able to repeat every car number and description. Also, rapid math calculations. I think a woman from India has the record for multiplying large numbers in here head - square root too. But, these were brief demonstrations, not an entire show. And they were never announced as mentalists or psychics - and were not entertainers by profession.

Maybe the future of entertainment is having people with unique mental skills show off their abilities in public. BUt, why try and change the meaning of mentalism?
Invent a new word for this new form of entertainment. I will be entertained by seeing how many people will lay out $100 to see a long show of such abilities -
especially by a single person.

That is one possible flaw here. Since these special skills in past demonstrations have required years of practice or a uniquely prepared mind (accidental),
how can we believe that a single person can develop multiple mental skills plus the skills of audience engagement and presentation? add in the desire to be an entertainer
and live the life style.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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WitchDocChris
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The reply you quoted, Funsway, was directed to TomB which is why I quoted him. No idea why you decided it was directed to you and to take it personally.

Though this time ...
Quote:
Invent a new word for this new form of entertainment


That's the point! It's not a new form of entertainment at all! It's been around for hundreds of years. The roots of it have been around for most of human history.

People keep asking for examples as if the very notion that someone can do a show with genuine skills is utterly incomprehensible. I don't understand that. People have been entertaining audiences with unusual skills forever. Why is it that as soon as someone challenges an incorrect definition suddenly it's like we're saying we do the impossible?

Quote:
That is one possible flaw here. Since these special skills in past demonstrations have required years of practice or a uniquely prepared mind (accidental),
how can we believe that a single person can develop multiple mental skills plus the skills of audience engagement and presentation? add in the desire to be an entertainer
and live the life style.


Easily?

It's no different to people who learn multiple languages and also a profession? Viggo Mortensen speaks multiple languages, paints, writes poetry, is a survival expert, a skilled swordsman, and a pretty good actor to boot. Is it so impossible to believe someone else could learn multiple skills?

Look - I learned how to read people as a kid who wanted to avoid being bullied. When I got a bit older I realized I could use the skill to freak out my friends by predicting their thoughts and behavior. At this point it's an innate skill. I learned how to "project energy" when I studied the occult and also in martial arts. Martial arts also taught me the basics of muscle reading (the exercise commonly called "sticky hands"). Years of studying and practice taught me how to use suggestion effectively and also how to hypnotize people. Memory arts are freely available online to anyone who puts some effort into it.

How is this remotely less possible than someone spending hours upon hours learning a hundred sleights to perform magic?

It's. A. Skill. Set.

This conversation is circling. Nothing new is being said and clearly no one is really paying attention anyway, so, it's been fun ya'll.
Christopher
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Mindpro
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I couldn't agree more. This has been greatly derailed and taken waaaay off-topic and is now just a trolling or flaming continuance leading nowhere.

The answers to the OPs original question were covered in the initial posts on page one of this thread. Plenty of valuable and helpful information was referenced in this thread whether people choose to accept it, understand it, or not.

Either start your own thread to continue such topics and issues or don't, but don't continue to derail this one any longer.
Kong
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I ask to see it because I've never seen what you're calling "real mentalism" before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone "project energy" before either but I suspect that's even harder to capture on video.
TomB
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Few quotes are from Steve Shaw (Banachek)

Quote:
when I started out doing mentalism,I didn't know there was a subset of magic called mentalism.
I just knew there were guys that conned people using tricks


Quote:
Mentalism is an assimilation of psychic phenomenon using trickery, well that can be sort of redundant right, but we admit it is trickery, we take the five known senses and make the illusion of a sixth sense, we get on stage and we get up there and we are using magic, and maybe the magic can be form of psychology or verbal/non-verbal communication or just straight up sleight of hand, or some other form of trickery, we are using to simulate psychic phenomenon.


Quote:
Banachek believes that the difference between a psychic and a mentalist is that the mentalist doesn’t claim to have real psychic power


Now I imagine you guys will disagree. But here is a leading mentalist stating what I have since page 1.

Your definition of mentalism is that of a psychic. Someone who lies to their audience that they have supernatural powers. And you are correct, that is not magic. Magicians do not lie.

Or maybe Banachek thinks the earth is flat. Because anyone who disagrees must be a fool.

See the dictionary defintion of a mentalist is someone that can read minds. And every real mentalist performs the effect of mind reading. Most use hot readings/pre-show and stooges. It can be entertaining, but let's call a spade a spade.

But I understand you want spontaneous readings with no foul play. I can only assume your genuine skills and intuition deal with cold readings. And cold readings are high probable guesses and statements based on observation.

Who here knows someone that is old and feeling pain?

I think of someone related to a name that starts with a J or M.

Honestly, I do not think of this as a genuine skill. I have ignored it, because I do not recognize it as a skill. Asking vague questions to large audience. I suppose there are some vulnerable, grieving people that make good suckers.

Banachek again
Quote:
when you take a look at a lot of mediums out there, I know exactly what those mediums are doing, and I think many of them are scum. I think they are taking advantage of people in a very vulnerable moment


Now of you are a mentalist, and perform cold readings and are not saying you have supernatural powers, I do not take issue. But there are the mediums and psychics that prey on the vulnerable.

As for hypnotists, I do not consider that magic. Fitzkee did not either. Also, if they are not reading minds, hypnostists are not mentalists either.

And for all the other tricks mentioned if they did not include reading minds, they are not mentalist skills. Those are just tricks done that compliment the mentalist repertoire. If you want to call it mental magic, that is fine with me.

And if you still disagree, and think you have genuine skills there are always those prove you have skill challenges and win a million dollars.

This post was a bit hijacked, but by the psychics that call themselves mentalists.
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
Your definition of mentalism is that of a psychic. Someone who lies to their audience that they have supernatural powers. And you are correct, that is not magic. Magicians do not lie


Incredible how you can read words that have specific meanings, and somehow conclude that they actually mean the exact opposite thing.

Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone "project energy" before either but I suspect that's even harder to capture on video.


Google it. Martial arts demonstrations, energy healers, all kinds of people do it. I have my own theories about how it works but that's neither here nor there. Look, here's one I stumbled across a while back - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggtL1tN3Fn8
Christopher
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Kong
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Quote:
On Sep 16, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:Google it. Martial arts demonstrations, energy healers, all kinds of people do it. I have my own theories about how it works but that's neither here nor there. Look, here's one I stumbled across a while back - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggtL1tN3Fn8


No thanks. I have a strong dislike of "energy healers" and such.
funsway
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Just to clarify. The "energy transference" I mentioned earlier has nothing to do with the "project energy" now being discussed, i.e. martial arts or healing.

Not to say that projecting energy could not be a part of a mentalism routine - just different.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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AndrewI
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Wow - so much talking past each other going on here!
I have a question for WitchDocChris to answer if he may be so kind.
I totally understand and agree with your point that there exists true skills and abilities which may be used without trickery to perform feats of wonder and that this is not mental magic but something else.
If you call that “mentalism” then I have no problem.
Question: if such a performer introduces actually trickery (peeks, pre-show etc) into their act in order to perform further feats which are actually not based on the abilities they purport to their audience that they are using, then are they still performing mentalism, or are they now performing mental magic?
funsway
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Interesting thought, Andrewl. Perhaps it is also a matter of what one considers to be trickery.

Several have offered feats of memory as an example of "real mentalism," yet if mnemonics are employed it is a trick rather than just remembering things.

Hypnotism can be viewed as an illusionary state that is not "real." So, how can demonstrating it be real anything.
Arnold Furst used to hypnotize people without any verbal commands. He wrote, "to hypnotize a person without saying anything, these are the words you must say,
I am about to hypnotize you without saying a single word." A trick!

Another technique is to influence what a person remembers in a carefully crafted restatement of what occurred. The mind can dismiss the actual events in favor of the trusted instructions. So, from the observer's perspective, the tricky event never occurred at all. Does this qualify as "real mentalism," since, in realty, the event never happened?

For example, a person writes down a word on a billet "for later verification if necessary." The slip is handed to a second person for safe keeping to be destroyed when no longer necessary, with a little tip on how to tear it up. In the process you execute a center tear while nicking the edged for future tear lines. Later on, you say, "Abby, my volunteer, is now very clear on the message she wishes to transmit. Arlene over there has been in sole possession of that verification slip since Abby wrote it. Some may fear that I might get at it. It can be destroyed now if desired. Abby, you alone know what is one that slip. Do you wish Arlene to tear it up? Great! Rip it to shreds."

If your reconstruction of events is accepted by all, especially the two women by their actions, then the fact that you momentarily handled the slip DID NOT HAPPEN.
Thus, no trick was involved in reality. Any obverser telling of the event will recount your version reality.

Such manipulation of perceptions and memory might be considered as "real mentalism" too. But it starts with either attracting the right audience or choosing the right effect for the audience of the moment. These are skills to be developed and not purchased on a DVD.

At the very least, mental based effects by any name requires that the performer knows something that the audience does not. Is that trickery?

Of course, if I perform a bit of conjuring based entirely on a psychological ploy it makes me a magician and incapable of ever learning mentalism is, right?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Kong
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Quote:
On Sep 17, 2019, funsway wrote:
Just to clarify. The "energy transference" I mentioned earlier has nothing to do with the "project energy" now being discussed, i.e. martial arts or healing.

Not to say that projecting energy could not be a part of a mentalism routine - just different.


My issue is more with folk who claim to possess incredible skills, present them as "real", yet provide no evidence beyond their "performance" to back it up. If this involves "healing" or "talking to the other side" then it sinks even lower, in my opinion.

It strikes me as either dishonesty, delusion or mental illness.
funsway
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Yes, those who apparently heal with energy are not doing shows for entertainment, so the call to "show off" is always suspect.

Nothing like a mother's kiss to make a bee sting go away - just not much use on a stage as a mentalist though.
The very setting "for entertainment" may preclude such abilities that some might consider "beyond normal."

There is an old saying, "A wizard best works invisibly." Might apply here also.

Sorry if you have never encountered a non-entertainer who can use energy in amazing ways such as healing.
My former Service Dog could heal folks - why not humans?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Kong
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Your dog could heal folk?

Are you sure about that?
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
Question: if such a performer introduces actually trickery (peeks, pre-show etc) into their act in order to perform further feats which are actually not based on the abilities they purport to their audience that they are using, then are they still performing mentalism, or are they now performing mental magic?


When they begin to use trickery they are straying from mentalism.

Quote:
Several have offered feats of memory as an example of "real mentalism," yet if mnemonics are employed it is a trick rather than just remembering things.


Quote:
mne·mon·ics
/nəˈmäniks/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: mnemonics

the study and development of systems for improving and assisting the memory.


How is developing the ability to remember things a trick?

Quote:
Hypnotism can be viewed as an illusionary state that is not "real." So, how can demonstrating it be real anything.


It could be viewed as that, but that would be wrong. I think your definition of "trick" is getting stretched so thin it's going to snap soon.

Just more examples of magician's thinking throughout. What ifs and what abouts and stretching and kneading definitions until they fit what the magician already wanted to believe.
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Kong
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Yet here we are, still waiting...
funsway
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Quote:
On Sep 17, 2019, Kong wrote:
Your dog could heal folk?

Are you sure about that?


Why question my veracity? If I am not sure of what I post I note it as an opinion.

I save my false claims for stage work.

But, I will rephrase. There are dozens of people telling stories of how Limora detected they were ill and was the reason they went to a doctor.
For any guest or relative with a cold or other distress, Limora would get up beside them on the bed for a while, Then she would go outside and throw up.
The person would get better immediately. Did they heal themselves? Maybe - but she was the claimed cause. Not by me - by the ill person.
She also knew when a person would soon die, but that is another matter.

Therapy dogs in hospitals help people recover every day. Methinks (opinion) that humans get do such healing also, but have forgotten how.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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