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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I absolutely do like history.

I do not like remembering for revenge. Certainly you see the difference. I just am not explaining well.

Oh ok. I'm not sure where the revenge comes into play. I don't like the sound of remembering for revenge either.


OK now we are getting somewhere. Good.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites.

Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives.

It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Animated Puppets
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On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Context only matters to those who can affect change. Sometimes. Nobody had forgotten about Germany when WW2 started.



Context matters in the frame of reference. Events that occured prior to someone being born does not carry the same weight to those who experienced it; or remember before the world 'changed'.

To me, the Lusitania isn't extremely important. Not to say it doesn't matter but for my frame of reference is a historical event.
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I absolutely do like history.

I do not like remembering for revenge. Certainly you see the difference. I just am not explaining well.

Oh ok. I'm not sure where the revenge comes into play. I don't like the sound of remembering for revenge either.


OK now we are getting somewhere. Good.

But I'm a tad confused as to where the revenge thing came from?
Did someone here suggest we need to remember history so we can take revenge?
magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Context only matters to those who can affect change. Sometimes. Nobody had forgotten about Germany when WW2 started.



Context matters in the frame of reference. Events that occured prior to someone being born does not carry the same weight to those who experienced it; or remember before the world 'changed'.

To me, the Lusitania isn't extremely important. Not to say it doesn't matter but for my frame of reference is a historical event.

To me it is extremely important (sorry, can't do italics). Perhaps even more so than to some who were alive somewhere in the world at that time, say a Dinka Tribesman or a Maori leader.
Just guessing.
Your statement, "Events that occured prior to someone being born does not carry the same weight to those who experienced it;" is simply untrue in all circumstances.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK now we are getting somewhere. Good.

But I'm a tad confused as to where the revenge thing came from?
Did someone here suggest we need to remember history so we can take revenge?

It came up as a negative example of motivation and perspective. The pendulum description of historical motivations can be heard on the nightly news as actions taken "in response to" or "in retaliation for".

One day a line starting "don't make me..." will cue laughter rather than expectations of bad behavior.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Animated Puppets
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How is it untrue? Seeing that it rings true for myself.
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magicfish
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On Sep 13, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK now we are getting somewhere. Good.

But I'm a tad confused as to where the revenge thing came from?
Did someone here suggest we need to remember history so we can take revenge?

It came up as a negative example of motivation and perspective. The pendulum description of historical motivations can be heard on the nightly news as actions taken "in response to" or "in retaliation for".

One day a line starting "don't make me..." will cue laughter rather than expectations of bad behavior.

Could you cut and paste it from this thread?
I scrolled but couldn't find it.
magicfish
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On Sep 13, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
How is it untrue? Seeing that it rings true for myself.

It is untrue because it would be impossible in every case.
The discovery of insulin might be extremely important to my cousin but perhaps wasnt so much for the local guitar player at the time.
Things can be more important to us historically today than to those who experienced it.
Happens with artists and sculptors quite a bit.
magicfish
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Some of the most celebrated artists of our time died broke and unknown.
Jonathan Townsend
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On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
...
Why remember? To keep ourselves vigilant? To get even? To stay angry? To keep historical perspective and perhaps learn from it?

Again I'm not taking a position, just asking questions is all.
Mentioned in the form of a question.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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Having survived learning a lesson we record the story. This leaves concise guides to difficult learning that get copied and kept at great expense over centuries. History is not a chanted collection of facts we hold more dear than "four legs good, two legs better". Unfortunately human nature puts some significant obstacles in the way of learning from our past. Here are a few of those obstacles:
Force of habit or custom does not easily change. The argument goes something like: what was good enough for your parents and their parents is not so good to talk about changing. Call it a normative force or social inertia.
We actively defend our sense of personal consistency at great expense. The old advertisement about "I'd rather fight than switch" met with approval at the time. Not so many folks found it funny and quipped: "oh, how about quit?".
We simplify our narratives to establish "good guys and bad guys" stories. We do that by selectively ignoring facts. This gets its own listing as the relevant facts were presented plainly in our newspapers and available in archives.
We tend to confuse a sizable collection of facts with a cogent argument. Recall the advertisement stating "nine out of ten dentist agree...". Associated symptoms include deception with numbers/graphs, correlations from biased data, politicized science funding... that's not the law of large numbers but it may as well be.

* And yet somehow we manage to create sublime artworks and astounding engineering feats. Remember which way is north! Never forget how to make fire!

[not for danny]
Is there a social parallel to Newton's laws of motion?
[/not for danny]
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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Umm..dentists? Compasses? Fire? Newton's not for Danny?
I'm trying. I really am.
Unfortunately I have to give up and move forward because I don't have time to sit alone with pencil and paper to try to figure out what you're saying. I wish you wouldnt make it so difficult.
I'm genuinely interested in your opinions.
tommy
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Americans who do not revere, that is to say, stand in awe of, fear, respect, the 9/11 terrorists, either do not believe the official narrative, or they do not understand the meaning of 'love thine enemy'. It is difficult but one must give the enemy its due. If not you will not know your enemy and so never beat them. You have to think of it from the enemies point of view, get into their heads. What is the use of hating your enemy?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr Salk
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"Love thine enemy, so that yee shall get into their heads to exploit weaknesses and destroy them." ~Jesus
.


.
tommy
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"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." -Sun Tzu and the Corleone.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites.

Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives.

It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration.


Yes, it is. Please tell us why you brought the word revere into this discussion?
tommy
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Please tell us also, how can those who can change things study what they have forgotten?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites.

Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives.

It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration.


Yes, it is. Please tell us why you brought the word revere into this discussion?


Why did you bring in commemoration?

I'm not getting into a petty back and forth.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Agreed we don't often make memorials of crash sites. Some may get flowers or a picture but not so many remain decorated and attended after a decade (1).

How do we choose which stories and events to remember? Part of this may be about how to distinguish friend from foe when meeting strangers, our shibboleths (2).

I believe learning from the past is difficult. Aspects of human nature and our society make change more difficult. These include:
i) As an individual or as a society people will do as they have unless acted upon by a an external agency, be it natural or narrative. People don't want to appear inconsistent. Faced with a challenge, increased costs, or a novel choice we turn to habit (3).
ii) The cost of change includes opportunity costs and risk assurances.
iii) Social narratives involving change include an equal and opposite external agency (4).

But how to argue for change? Facts and ideas are not persuasive. They may be educational but arguing cause for change works better from commonly held notions and values. (5)




********************************
1 A friend lost his father to a hit and run at a crosswalk in NYC. The next day there was nothing there at all to recall the event. More recently a neighbor's child was hit by a car on a small suburban road, right in front of the family house. The child spent the next year in casts and bone braces recovering. The town would not put up a stop sign. The family would keep watch whenever the kids went out to play - staring down any drivers who might endanger their children. The family down the road started putting up signs when their kids went out to play.

2 From how to pronounce a word to lines from the dialogue "who's on first", cartoons, movies, and these days also the baby shark song...

3 That tendency toward habit is a survival trait. From "don't rock the boat" to "better the devil you know" there's much wisdom in cautions against change. There was as cigarette advertisement showing a smoker with a black eye. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_Tareyton_smokers_would_rather_fight_than_switch!

4 Good guys to follow and bad guys to blame. It gets interesting when someone goes from hero to villain. Rather than irritate those who lost loved ones on 9/11/01, let's go look at Pearl Harbor's day of infamy. Here's a date a few months earlier that folks don't seem to recall too easily: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist......e-assets
Quote:
On July 24, Tokyo decided to strengthen its position in terms of its invasion of China by moving through Southeast Asia. Given that France had long occupied parts of the region, and Germany, a Japanese ally, now controlled most of France through Petain’s puppet government, France “agreed” to the occupation of its Indo-China colonies. Japan followed up by occupying Cam Ranh naval base, 800 miles from the Philippines, where Americans had troops, and the British base at Singapore.

President Roosevelt swung into action by freezing all Japanese assets in America. Britain and the Dutch East Indies followed suit. The result: Japan lost access to three-fourths of its overseas trade and 88 percent of its imported oil.
A second opinion on the matter here: https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/INTA4......ovan.pdf

5 As tactfully put by Aristotle in his book on Rhetoric: Rhetoric is useful because things that are true and things that are just have a natural tendency to prevail over their opposites, so that if the decisions of judges are not what they ought to be, the defeat must be due to the speakers themselves, and they must be blamed accordingly. Moreover, before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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