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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Kevin,
What a gracious and big-hearted pair of things to say. They mean a lot to me. Wishing you the best, Bob |
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SamChak Elite user 478 Posts |
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On Oct 29, 2020, Bob G wrote: I use the Lift Shuffle for stack card miracles that require top stock retention. But I also use the Jog Shuffle to retain the bottom stock. Stock retention is common in the poker deals and gambling plots. For example, the Bottoms, Seconds and Centers Demonstration on page 88 of The Card Magic of Nick Trost. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
I'll take a look at this, Sam. Thanks for the reference. I own this book, and it's full of riches.
If you have time, I'd be curious to hear what you think of two other ways to retain the bottom stock. One is in Card College 1, p. 48, last paragraph. It's a method to retain just a few cards at the bottom. (For Chicago Opener only the bottom two cards need to be retained.) The other method is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-344DMDb......cVzW-cs3 . All you need is 1:30-2:29. Bob Bob |
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SamChak Elite user 478 Posts |
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On Oct 30, 2020, Bob G wrote: The 2nd overhand shuffle method for bottom stock control in Card College 1, p. 48 allows the bottom stock to be retained in a single shuffle without cutting the shuffled deck. Technically, only the portion above the bottom stock is shuffled and it is deceptive because the outer end of the unlifted bottom stock is covered by the positioning of the left index finger during the initial action. However, the 2nd method may be uncomfortable for some performers with smaller hands because the initial execution depends on the length of the left ring finger. A remedy for this issue that I often advise to some young performers is to shuffle the cards normally in the overhand shuffle position, but throw the bottom stock under the left hand's packet, like the finishing move in the Optical Shuffle in Card College 2, p. 261. The bottom stock is also retained in a single shuffle, without the injog technique. Quote:
On Oct 30, 2020, Bob G wrote: The overhand shuffle concept demonstrated in Tricklandia channel is similar to the 1st overhand shuffle method for bottom stock control in Card College 1 that requires two shuffling cycles. The immediate lifting procedure at the end of the 1st shuffling cycle eliminates the formation of the break using the injogged card. However, you can see the obvious switching of finger positioning (due to the lifting) in the 2nd shuffling cycle, which maybe perceived as "slightly unnatural" by some spectators. Human brains are good at recognizing differences, thanks to the image retention (during the 1st shuffling cycle) and the pattern processing capabilities. The image retention can be preserved by adjusting the positioning of the fingers at the end of the 1st shuffling cycle, by slightly rotating the wrist of the left hand counterclockwise, allowing the correct right fingers to lift the cards naturally. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Very interesting, Sam. After I'd watched the video a few times I noticed the packet switch, though not the change in finger position. (Of course, I knew what to look for by that time.)
I have fairly large hands, so I don't think the second method in Giobbi should be a problem. I did wonder whether spectators would notice the middle or ring finger pulling down the bottom stock. Really interesting how the index finger hides the ring finger! Does this work even for spectators who may not be directly in front of the performer? You've given me a lot to explore; thanks as always for your articulate and detailed explanations. Bob |
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SamChak Elite user 478 Posts |
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On Nov 1, 2020, Bob G wrote: Hi Bob, it works for me. Nevertheless, in all sleights and tricks, experienced performers learn that they can do a little spectator management if they worry about the angle issue. Now, talking about spectator management in Chicago Opener, I'm interested to know how you would react if the spectator doesn't pick the forced card. What would you do if the spectator wishes to select the card at the 2nd or 3rd from top? (as if the clever spectator is aware that you are trying to force a card using certain familiar techniques). I ask because I seldom perform tricks that require the spectator to select a single forced card, either in the spread procedure or the 'say-stop' procedure. If I want to perform the prediction tricks, I usually resort to the Pick-and-Peek approach. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Hi Sam,
After I asked you the question about angles, I realized that I could have practiced in the mirror. Now, about Chicago Opener: Whew! It never occurred to me that a spectator would want a card other than the one displayed in the Hindu Shuffle Force. I guess if that happened I could let them take the card they wanted, and peek at their selection, as you suggest. Then I'd go into another trick to find their card, because Chicago Opener requires that they take the force card. One question leads to another. Any suggestions about how to peek the card? I appreciate your messages. I'm learning a lot! Bob |
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SamChak Elite user 478 Posts |
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On Nov 2, 2020, Bob G wrote: Hi Bob, my suggestions are definitely going to Roberto Giobbi's Card College (read Vol. 1 and Vol. 2) and Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights (watch Vol. 3 and Vol. 5), which I remembered that you mentioned about owning them in miscellaneous posts. Quote:
On Nov 2, 2020, Bob G wrote: Anyhow, let's get back to the Chicago Opener! This is a more important question to ponder about. Do you think that the performer should abandon the trick? What would you do with the odd-backed card then? For typical stand-alone pick-a-card tricks, it is permissible to jump onto the next trick. But once the odd-backed card is revealed, the Chicago Opener is already halfway through the routine. If the situation arises, I'd assure the spectator that the selection is totally a free choice. Next, I will place the selection at the bottom and perform a color change to 'transform' the selection into the forced card. Then, I proceed to the final phase of the Chicago Opener and show that the back changes color as well. You could probably find more innovative ideas from other dedicated Chicago magicians. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Gosh, thanks for your careful reading of my posts! Interesting idea to use a color change. The Erdnase-Houdini change is on my list of sleights to return to.
Because of the virus, my wife is my only spectator, and she wouldn't do something like insist on taking the third-from bottom card. But who knows, by the time things are safe again and I can perform for others, I may have learned the E-H change! Bob |
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copperct New user Cincinnati, Ohio 93 Posts |
I'm having trouble visualizing the overhand optical shuffle. Can anyone speak to the content in R. Paul Wilson's DVD set if it does a good job of demonstrating this move?
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Bob Farmer Elite user Magic Forest 428 Posts |
A complete explanation of the optical shuffle will appear in The Bammo Flim-Flam CONglomeration: Over 450 pages, 129,000 words, 300 illustrations, more than 332 entries (and comes with a complete cross-referenced Scamdex). Publication in about 4 months.
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
I am really pleased I learnt a full deck false shuffle (in fact I now know more than one). I did this when I learnt a mem-stack. But I have also realised how useful it is as a "default" shuffle. Now if I read ANY instruction that says "perform a shuffle retaining the top/bottom/middle stock" I already have a shuffle that meets the requirement. I do know other shuffles (from the first chapter of RRTCM I think), but rarely use them.
My next new shuffle will probably be a Riffle. I think it is important to be able to run singles when you need to - so it's worth persevering with Hunter/Garrett shuffle for that reason. Like I said earlier, I practiced running the whole deck until I got the feel of it. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Sam's comment about tricky spectators is really thought-provoking. Like Bob I am at the level where I rely on compliant spectators. BUT it's a great point nevertheless.
Personally I think the Hindu Shuffle looks way too fishy. Nobody I know shuffles like that in normal life. In fact magicians don't normally shuffle that way - only when they want to do a sleight. In Chicago Surprise, Whit Haydn uses a completely different technique - Classic Force, with the faces visible AND the option for spectator to change their mind. I also realised that you could do Chicago Opener without the Hindu Shuffle (but without doing the full Chicago Surprise). You could use a spread cull force. This allows the spectator to touch any card they want - but the card they see is always the same. So does not have the problem Sam identified with Hindu Shuffle. And you can likewise use a spread cull in the first phase to control the selected card to the bottom underneath the stranger card. So no Hindu shuffle required at all. PS. the Cull is an amazing sleight - so many uses, like a Swiss penknife! |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Hi copperct,
While you're waiting for Bob Farmer's book to come out, you can look at Card College 2, Ch 15: https://www.lybrary.com/card-college-2-c......230.html . I'm not sure whether this e-version of the chapter includes a video demo of the optical shuffle. Chris Wasshuber of Lybrary.com could probably tell you. Regards, Bob |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Hi Nikodemus,
Interesting ideas. I'm aware of Hadyn's ingenious Chicago Surprise, but at my level I need to learn Chicago Opener first. Did you find it hard to learn the spread cull force? I like your comparison of it to a Swiss Army Knife. It's a sleight I've wanted to learn for some time, but I'm working on easier sleights first. My Hunter Shuffle is improving... It's funny how sometimes when you practice enough, your hands fall into doing something right, and you don't even know what you're doing, but you just get some kind of unconscious feel for the move. Bob |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Hi Bob,
I agree with you about overall dexterity improving with practice. We have both struggled with double-lifts. Over the last 1-2 months I have noticed mine getting steadily more reliable. Whenever I sit down in front of the TV I usually have a deck of cards I am practicing with. The Cull is not too difficult. There are basically two "styles". You can push with the left fingers or pull with the right fingers. The best resources I have found are the CullFather DVD (push style) and RoadRunner Cull DVD (pull style). Both contain great material. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Nikodemus and Sam,
Nikodemus: Coincidentally, my DL has been improving during the same time period! Great feeling, no? I'll look into the DVD's you mentioned. I didn't know there were two styles. Sam Chak: With the bottom retention overhand shuffle that we talked about, I can now see that the right index finger covers the move from the front, and the back of the right hand covers it from the right. I need to play with this in a mirror, but I can imagine that a slight turn to the right would cover it from the left also. Bob |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Hi again, folks.
1. Sam, I wanted to ask you about Pick-and-Peek. Are you saying that it would be appropriate for Chicago Opener? I. e., could the spectator change his/her mind? Also, where can I find a good description of this method? The closest I was able to find was Card College 1, pp. 72-76 on the peek control, but that's a control, not a force. I also looked in the Royal Road's index and didn't find this technique. Maybe it's in Daryl's Encylopedia...? 2. I love this thread. My thanks to everyone for all the great thoughts. I just reread the whole thing, and there's so much interesting material that it's overwhelming! -- in a good way. Bob |
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SamChak Elite user 478 Posts |
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On Nov 9, 2020, Bob G wrote: Hi Bob, Why not rephrasing it as, "Did you find it easy to learn the spread cull force?" I guess you must be 'thinking' about some technical issues that prevented you from pulling off a certain finger coordination or movements. Helpful description of The Under-the-spread Force can be found in Roberto Giobbi's Card College Volume 1. Quote:
On Nov 10, 2020, Bob G wrote: I was saying that if I want to perform a typical prediction trick, I'd adopt the Pick-and-Peek approach (Chicago Opener is not a prediction trick). As implied, it is a way of telling the spectator to 'pick' a card and then peek at the selection. Since you already owned Sessions with Simon DVD (Volume 2), you can look up "Head Over Heels." Other Pick-and-Peek techniques include Benjamin Earl's Lookaway Glimpse (in Past Midnight: Psychological DVD) and Jack Tighe's Dribble Glimpse. |
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copperct New user Cincinnati, Ohio 93 Posts |
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On Nov 8, 2020, Bob G wrote: Thanks for the tip! I will have to just pull the trigger on the video series. Seems like it's an incredible resource for a lot of the questions I have (the whole series). I'm not sure whether this e-version of the chapter includes a video demo of the optical shuffle. Chris Wasshuber of Lybrary.com could probably tell you. |
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