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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
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And would it be bad if only 25 people a year took up the hobby? If so, why? Define "bad" - I mean, the entire retail side of the industry would implode and more or less vanish. I can't say that would be a definitely bad thing. Progress would more or less stop. People would probably go back to basically writing an act and performing it until they died. In some ways the competition aspect of the retail industry drives innovation. We do end up having a lot of repetition in this industry but the amount of innovation in the past couple decades is possibly more than the entirety of some centuries in the past.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
"Look at Page. Look at Lorayne."
What about them? |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote: You mean existing magicians don't buy stuff? Actually we probably buy more.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, magicfish wrote: Quote:
Look at Page. Look at Lorayne. Look at Fulves. Hell, look at the Dover catalogue. For-public magic texts have always existed. |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
I do wish I knew what everyone was talking about!!!
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote: I have no issue with basic magic books for public consumption. That isn't what I'm talking about. Having a few good, general magic books in the library is fine. That's what I started with. The point is you still had to "work for it" Go to the library and locate them. You had to be somewhat motivated. That motivation, fueled with a little information then turns into real interest and ultimately passion. Page, as you know, got himself in trouble with the Magic Circle because in their opinion his book revealed a little too much and was readily available to anyone. They felt it was a direct violation of their code of conduct and they chose to enforce it.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, Tortuga wrote: Professionals don't buy a ton of stuff. For one, the popular ones are gifted a lot of products for a variety of reasons. For two, they only have to replace the consumables in their act. They do the same act for new audiences consistently for a very long time usually. I buy tons of books because I love reading about the theory, philosophy, and art of the mystery arts, but I rarely buy tricks because I don't need or want them until a specific need comes up in a show. People who buy one or two tricks probably out number the ones who buy a lot. I would be comfortable betting that the majority of magic is purchased by casual magicians or semi-pros who have to perform for the same audience regularly.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote: You keep moving the goalposts. I didn't say professional. I said existing magicians. There aren't enough real professionals to keep one shop open.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, Tortuga wrote: Right. So then the argument boils down to: People who have a genuine interest will watch the YouTube equivalent of a basic magic text, and from there a passion will spark; people who don’t will watch a YouTube magic tutorial (Why? Unclear...) and then... What, exactly? Stand atop a building and reveal our secrets over megaphone? What is the nefarious goings-on that I, as a magician, should be worried about? Quote:
Page, as you know, got himself in trouble with the Magic Circle because in their opinion his book revealed a little too much and was readily available to anyone. They felt it was a direct violation of their code of conduct and they chose to enforce it. Yes. A good example of hand-wringing and pearl-clutching that the Circle ultimately apologized for. |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
I work with magic store customers every day. I have access to the records.
I can tell you for sure that the number of people who buy a few tricks and then lose interest is very, very high. I absolutely believe they buy more magic tricks than existing magicians, simply because there's more of them. The "existing magicians" subset is filtered from the "new customer" set. The absolute vast majority of customers for magic don't keep at it.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
If Maskelyne and Devant are drummed out of magic, I will follow them to the exit. There are no secrets.
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote: So what? It has nothing to do with internet exposure in the least. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
OK, I'm done here. I've made my position clear. Some will agree, some will disagree.
Pop, nobody here has argued that magicians could not publish, what we are talking about is the fact that tricks are performed on youtube and routinely explained, without permission of the creator and mostly with no attribution. The latest and greatest is simply thrown out to the public for free. To sum up my feelings on the subject, consider the following. Even he saw that doing your business could result in business. From the web: John Nevil Maskelyne English magician and inventor of the pay toilet
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, Tortuga wrote: YouTube is a big dangerous cat. Everyone agrees we should put a bell on it. What I am saying is, exposure doesn't hurt magic. The real secrets of magic enable us to continue our work in spite of such things. Maskelyne and Devant's book was pilloried by organized magic. They revealed the secrets of their own creations to the public! What they said was: "The prevalent idea is that the secrets of magic consist in tricks and dodges, connected with the manipulations and the apparatus employed in the art. To most people, the "secret" of any magical presentation means simply "how it is done." It is assumed that, when once the devices used in producing a magical effort have been discovered, the' secret of that effect is revealed. The trick has been found out, and therefore nothing remains to be learned. A more erroneous view has never been conceived. Not only so, it is a view that cannot be justified on any rational ground, as we propose to show in the following pages. "The real secrets of magic are not merely trade secrets. They are not workshop devices, connected with manipulation and mechanism. They are not ingenious dodges which, when learned, enable their possessor to accomplish all that a skilled magician can do. They are not tricks and puzzles devised for the bewilderment of the public. Far from it. They are of an order far higher than elementary matters of that description, and far removed from the popular conception of their nature. Our present object is to disclose these secrets-to explain the real basis of the magic art, and the principles upon which magical effects actually depend. In short, we intend to show not only the tricks which magicians use, but also the essential factors which underlie the whole art and practice of magic. It will be found that, so far from being bound up in jugglery and paraphernalia, the true art in magic is purely intellectual in character, and comprises an infinitely varied range of interest." |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Pop, but again, my point includes posting explanations of others work with no permission or credit. That is just wrong ethically. Even if you support exposure. It hurts the ability of creators to earn a reward for their work. Nobody yet seems to care.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts |
I agree with Pop's referential post about "secrets" not simply existing in the mechanics of a trick(s). At the same time, however, I was disturbed to see in this particular forum what appeared to be a chapter by chapter video "exposure" of a new book of card techniques/tricks. In fact, I couldn't continue to watch it after realizing what was really happening. (to compare: imagine a novelist having his/her book read and produced on tape anonymously, no credits, royalties, etc). It's obviously different if the author of tricks/techniques etc gives permission or even exposes his/her own material. Some magicians do produce occasional performance/explanation freely. I imagine that many of Jay Sankey's youtubes eg simply entice magicians to dig further! Or maybe, he just wanted to "expose" himself like an exhibitionist. Still,l I am more disturbed by outright theft of other's material. Lynn
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Lynn, thanks for that. Did you consider questioning the people or reporting them to the moderators?
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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JSBLOOM Inner circle 2024 Posts |
"But YouTubers often are. Not the commentators, they're usually jerks, but the people making the videos. Because being supportive of your subscribers gets you more subscribers and therefore more money."
Very nicely worded and true. I have my "set" and simply looking to improve stuff like gimmicks with card cases..visual stuff. Or more tricks to fill a slot. It is based after Michael Finney Got the 7QA2 trick... Force those instead of 4 aces...Magician in trouble and people should LOVE that. Prediction is 8 which looks like infinity Forever in love Most of the stuff, 99.9% on youtube is not good enough for a professional to perform Best, Jeff |
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Troof New user 23 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, magicfish wrote: It doesn't matter what I think about more people becoming magicians. Why are you interested in my opinion? |
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts |
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On Nov 26, 2019, Tortuga wrote: No one in this thread disagrees with you. |
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