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Bohacek
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OK, I am going to bite the bullet and learn a stacked deck. But which one? and why that one? What aids are available to help learn that particular stack? Thanks for your help.
walidosama
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algeria
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The best stack I think is the mnemonic stack
just a quick research and you will fall in love with it
Silversleights04
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IMO, Richard Osterlind's Breakthrough Card System is the most accessible (you can learn it in 30 min), but it has limitations. Juan Tamariz's Mnemonica is probably the most popular and has a ton of versatile applications, but that one will take studying. Those are the only two I'm familiar with, but they are very strong stacks. Best of luck and have fun!
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TomB
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Simon aronson has several books on stacked decks.

Part of your answer lies within what effect are you looking for. Simon has some poker hands that makes his fun to do.
dclxvinyc
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For me, mnemonica is the best of all stacks. There are advantages to each, but hardly any has a disadvantage. I like Juan Tamariz's work, and I find the appendix in Mnemonica one of the greatest magic references available today.

But listen: it doesn't matter. Choose one and go for it. Almost any tricks that you'll want to be doing can be done with ANY memorized deck. It's just a matter of committing to it and learning it, and the sooner the better.

I memorized Mnemonica in early 2016, and I use it every single day. I'm still learning more and more about it and finding more creative ways to use the familiarity to my advantage.

If today's the day you decide to start learning, what better tribute to Simon Aronson's passing than to learn his?
Woody Aragon's stack receives high praise and I've been in his closeup audience at the magic castle. The man works miracles.


Enjoy!
-a
Waterloophai
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Quote:
On Dec 8, 2019, Silversleights04 wrote:
IMO, Richard Osterlind's Breakthrough Card System is the most accessible (you can learn it in 30 min), but it has limitations. Juan Tamariz's Mnemonica is probably the most popular and has a ton of versatile applications, but that one will take studying. Those are the only two I'm familiar with, but they are very strong stacks. Best of luck and have fun!

Richard Osterlind's Breakthrough Card System is not a memorized deck. (unless you memorize it).
Waterloophai
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Quote:
On Dec 3, 2019, walidosama wrote:
The best stack I think is the mnemonic stack
just a quick research and you will fall in love with it

"The best stack" does not exists!
The best stack for YOU exists.
It's a pure personal choice.
Silversleights04
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Quote:
On Dec 11, 2019, Waterloophai wrote:
Richard Osterlind's Breakthrough Card System is not a memorized deck. (unless you memorize it).


Fair enough. It might be more appropriate to call it an accessible alternative to a traditional memorized stack. You're right, it's definitely a different animal, but worth mentioning because it can still accomplish some of the same amazing effects as a stack. Not all, but some.
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ddyment
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It depends.

It depends on your learning style.

It depend on the types of effects for which you plan to use it.

It depends on how comfortable you are with occasional memory lapses.

I've written about this, in some detail, here.
Doug Dyment's Deceptionary :: Elegant, Literate, Contemporary Mentalism ... and More
Silversleights04
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Quote:
On Dec 11, 2019, ddyment wrote:
It depends.

It depends on your learning style.

It depend on the types of effects for which you plan to use it.

It depends on how comfortable you are with occasional memory lapses.

I've written about this, in some detail, here.


Thanks for the link to your writing! This is a great resource!
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aabc
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Personally, though I suggest that you check out the main stacks (BCS, Mnemonica, Aronson, Memorandum, etc), I think that Redford's stack is the most versatile, transforming easily into Stebbins, NDO, and it can be gotten into very easily with two (strong) tricks from a shuffled deck, which he teaches in his book Temporarily Out of Order. Of course, it's up to you though.
Pasteboard Alchemist
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I'm going to echo the above. I used Aronson before moving to Mnemonica. Used Mnemonica religiously (and evangelized it darn-near as a religion) for more than a decade. Used Woody's stack when Cosas Mías came out (and the later revised version in Memorandum) and it was good--even good enough to consider switching over to full-time from Mnemonica. But, after seeing Temporarily Out of Order the benefits and built-in versatility of the Record stack (easy to get into from a shuffled deck, getting around from NDO to Stebbins to stack and back quickly, getting to R/B alternating quickly, etc.), I moved over to it and haven't looked back. If one gets deep into stack work, they'll eventually find things they say "I love my stack, but I really wish it could..." For me, every Redford hit all those.
dclxvinyc
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Quote:
On Dec 12, 2019, Pasteboard Alchemist wrote:
I'm going to echo the above. I used Aronson before moving to Mnemonica. Used Mnemonica religiously (and evangelized it darn-near as a religion) for more than a decade. Used Woody's stack when Cosas Mías came out (and the later revised version in Memorandum) and it was good--even good enough to consider switching over to full-time from Mnemonica. But, after seeing Temporarily Out of Order the benefits and built-in versatility of the Record stack (easy to get into from a shuffled deck, getting around from NDO to Stebbins to stack and back quickly, getting to R/B alternating quickly, etc.), I moved over to it and haven't looked back. If one gets deep into stack work, they'll eventually find things they say "I love my stack, but I really wish it could..." For me, every Redford hit all those.



I think it's remarkable that some people are able to memorize multiple stacks throughout their careers and not get completely tied up in knots.
I hear amazing things about Redford, but I stand behind what Ortiz said in Designing Miracles, "Any stack at all is better than waiting to start learning a better one" or something to that effect.
He has some amazing stack effects that are all independent of which stack is being used.

The reason I stick behind mnemonica as hard as I do is because of all the great Tamariz theory you're exposed to when reading his book. There are so many beautiful effects built into the mnemonica order that I will never even take advantage of.

But the thought behind his tricks, all the theory crammed into every corner, it's a delight. And such a compliment with Sonata.

It's been years and my brain's not gone completely soft... Maybe it's time I start learning a second stack and see what else is out there?
Fredzik
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Quote:
On Dec 12, 2019, Pasteboard Alchemist wrote:
I'm going to echo the above. I used Aronson before moving to Mnemonica. Used Mnemonica religiously (and evangelized it darn-near as a religion) for more than a decade. Used Woody's stack when Cosas Mías came out (and the later revised version in Memorandum) and it was good--even good enough to consider switching over to full-time from Mnemonica. But, after seeing Temporarily Out of Order the benefits and built-in versatility of the Record stack (easy to get into from a shuffled deck, getting around from NDO to Stebbins to stack and back quickly, getting to R/B alternating quickly, etc.), I moved over to it and haven't looked back. If one gets deep into stack work, they'll eventually find things they say "I love my stack, but I really wish it could..." For me, every Redford hit all those.


Just a remark: the workd of Patrick Redford is excellent but the argument about easy to get into from a shuffled deck, from NDO etc ...applies to Mnemonica too. And in his Penguin lecture, Patrick is claiming to stack a shuffled deck with the Chinese shuffle within 1 minute, which I think is far exagerated. The whole sequence takes at least 3 minutes. Besides I found the same sequence to end up in the stay stack position of Mnemonica and it also takes 3 minutes to get into it. In both cases, it is anyway more efficient to cull the deck into low/high halves and then directly order both halves in the hand. Such a procedure does not take more than 75-90 seconds.
aabc
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However, in TOOO, there are two tricks laid out that take you from a shuffled deck to stack (without going directly with a potentially more see-through trick). In Mnemonica, this is not the case-although it may be possible to get into it from a shuffled deck, this isn't in the book in the same way at all-it is left to the reader. For someone (the OP) who seems relatively inexperienced with stack work, I think Redford's is best as his has the most useful features already laid out in his book, and not left to the reader. He has even done the PEG system for you so if you want to use that method you can start learning straight away. Whatever stack you learn though, I think you should get both books.
Fredzik
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You are right, I agree that the material contained in TOOO is excellent.
dclxvinyc
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Quote:
On Dec 19, 2019, aabc wrote:
However, in TOOO, there are two tricks laid out that take you from a shuffled deck to stack (without going directly with a potentially more see-through trick). In Mnemonica, this is not the case-although it may be possible to get into it from a shuffled deck, this isn't in the book in the same way at all-it is left to the reader. For someone (the OP) who seems relatively inexperienced with stack work, I think Redford's is best as his has the most useful features already laid out in his book, and not left to the reader. He has even done the PEG system for you so if you want to use that method you can start learning straight away. Whatever stack you learn though, I think you should get both books.



Do you think as a long time mnemonica user that I should check out Redford? TOOO looks like a great book, but are any of the tricks/methods stack independent, or is it all centered around the Redford?
Fredzik
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2019, dclxvinyc wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 19, 2019, aabc wrote:
However, in TOOO, there are two tricks laid out that take you from a shuffled deck to stack (without going directly with a potentially more see-through trick). In Mnemonica, this is not the case-although it may be possible to get into it from a shuffled deck, this isn't in the book in the same way at all-it is left to the reader. For someone (the OP) who seems relatively inexperienced with stack work, I think Redford's is best as his has the most useful features already laid out in his book, and not left to the reader. He has even done the PEG system for you so if you want to use that method you can start learning straight away. Whatever stack you learn though, I think you should get both books.



Do you think as a long time mnemonica user that I should check out Redford? TOOO looks like a great book, but are any of the tricks/methods stack independent, or is it all centered around the Redford?


I personnaly don't think there as much material explored for Redford Stack than Mnemonica for the time being.
First as you mention, a lot of material included in TOOO is stack independant,
and many strong impact routines do not require a particular stack.
Secondly the Tamariz stack was expored by many many magicians (as well as the Aronson one btw)
one can think about the great work of Pit Hartling and more recently Denis Behr in his books and DVD's sets.
We share with my local magic circle mates tips and original routines with Mnemonica because
precisely Mnemonica is a reference which Redford stack is not yet. I recently shared an inpromptu
version of Prior Commitment with Mnemonica which is very strong (the 2 jokers are substituted
by the QH and KH) and could cite many others. I recently found that even the King Me routine from TOOD
is also present in Mnemonica with the 2 black kings !

To be clear I don't want to minimize the merits of Redford stack here but the pros are not sufficient to me.
Si Stebbins properties are nice, but Mnemonica has also Stay Stack, can also be stacked for shuffled
deck with a Chinese Shuffle or with a routine like Memory Jumble
and there are many nice routines to end up easily with NDO from Mnemonica ...
If one goes along the list of the 22 reasons for the Redford Stack, most of them are fullfilled by Mnemonica too.

My 2cents
Patrick Redford
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I thought I'd chime in here. When I designed the "Redford Stack" I included everything that both Mnemonica and Aronson could do inside it and a whole lot more. That's not to say the Mnemonica book isn't required reading by any serious student of the memorized stack. It's an invaluable resource. The "King Me" routine was something was adopted from Aronson stack and I'm pleased you also found a way to do it in Mnemonica!

That's not to say the Redford stack is better than what's come before, it's different. It works. It does what it does well and efficiently. I wanted the most options I could have in one place and have the option to stack into other kinds of stacks quickly without a lot of fan-fair that is required by the other stacks I've explored and am familiar with.

The next two books we have planned (the next coming out in January) are packed with even more material as well that will be of interest no matter what memorized stack one likes to use.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what stack one uses as long as the user is happy with what it can and can't do and knows it well.
Fredzik
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Thank you for your answer. To be honest, if I would start now into stack card magic, I may consider using the Redford
stack. But as a Mnemonica "expert" (I don't put too much pretension here), I was just sharing my personnal feelings about shifting from Mnemonica to Redford now.
And you are right, when choosing a stack, it is a matter of trying the best compromise regarding the needs and
implementd possibilities into the stack, like Si Stebbins, Stay-Stay , back to NDO, spelling routines, poker routines etc ...
And every stack is different.
Last point, my feeling is that some of the strongest routines are stack independant anyway. And I recently stacked (numericaly) The Gallery Deck from Marc Spelman and I enjoy so much adapting stack-independant routines to a photographic deck.
Unfortunately I missed the deadline for the Redford kickstarter Photographic Deck ...
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