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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » How It's Done by Edward A. Litzau and daub (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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If the daub can not be dull and the daub can not be shinny then what else the daub could be is a mystery to me.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On Jan 23, 2020, tommy wrote:

If the daub can not be dull and the daub can not be shinny then what else the daub could be is a mystery to me.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Wm. Shakespeare (Hamlet)
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In that regard what is the best daub to use is relative to the sort of playing cards one is working with. Different sorts of playing cards have different finishes: some have a shiny finish some a matt finish. It is not the daub so much that needs to match the finish but the carrier which is, as a rule, a clear substance.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On Jan 23, 2020, tommy wrote:
In that regard what is the best daub to use is relative to the sort of playing cards one is working with. Different sorts of playing cards have different finishes: some have a shiny finish some a matt finish. It is not the daub so much that needs to match the finish but the carrier which is, as a rule, a clear substance.


Is this like the old song, "Different strokes for different folks?" Smile
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Which reminds me that one can get ante stroke fingerprint dust. We have some which is white and is quite invisible on Ken cards on the white border or the white edges of the cards but can be seen with an IR cam.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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On Jan 24, 2020, tommy wrote:
Which reminds me that one can get ante stroke fingerprint dust. We have some which is white and is quite invisible on Ken cards on the white border or the white edges of the cards but can be seen with an IR cam.


Didn't Erdnase say that the resourceful professional will have nothing do do with prepared cards...and ...isn't he the final word on card table chicanery.
Cliff Rusnick
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Tommy, by carrier, are you referring to the medium with which the pigment is mixed, is always clear?

I wouldn't have thought that. It seems with the basic formula I have here from litzau, the daub goes on clear and does not disrupt the consistency of the back of the card... However the base substance is far from clear as you probably know.

As for the "fingerprint dust". I'm not sure if you spelled the name wrong to slightly disguise the powder to which you're referring to or not... But if you are talking about what I think you are, I wasn't aware it would be visible with an IR cam. Usually such a pigment is advertised as needing excitation in a specific wavelength to create a fluorescence into the visible spectrum. I have some of this powder coming in the mail. I will have to run more tests with it than I thought. You're telling me it's an IR blocking substance too?

Speaking of powder, I had a question regarding "juice dust" or powdered forms of daub...
In my messing around with the litzau stuff, I made a type of "juice dust", however it's much more messy than a typical paste or chunky powdered classic daub. I've seen the types of bags that expertmagician sells his juice dust in, and it all seems more messy no matter how you look at it. Do pros actually prefer a powdery dry substance like this? Or are they typically still slightly on the paste/packable (compressible) powder side?



Jason, thanks for the reply. I understand your golf club analogy well. It makes sense to use the best only in the situations where you will need to be the best.
Also thanks for the tip about the GPS book. I went back and checked what he wrote about daub, and something struck my curiosity.

Steve mentions that usually almost always, the center or off center of the card is hit. This would denote a high card or desired card depending on the game played... but earlier cag's reference to the marks on the cards only being suggestions and having to guess the value right, indicates that he would be marking the actual value of the card and not only denoting a high card.

you and cag both agreeing on the analogy of a suggestion tells me it must be common place to denote actual value,/(almost)full identities of cards. Is this the case? Was Steve's book a little inaccurate in saying they're almost always marked in the middle?
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The game dictates where you hit the cards. In blackjack, just hitting high cards 10s, Js, Qs, Ks, and As would allow you to crush the game. All of them can be hit in the center. In baccarat, 7s, 8s and 9s would be hit. Again, hitting in the center would allow you to crush the game. Depending on the type of poker, you could hit only high cards all in the center (lowball, where knowing your opponent caught a high card and has a worthless hand, is a good example) or you could go for more information fidelity and hit all, or many of the values in different spots. It just depends on the game.

J

PS: the "suggestion" comment means that the work is so light that even you, the guy who KNOWS it's there, sometimes has doubts about whether you're seeing it or not and/or reading it correctly. This is especially true when looking at a card you haven't hit yet. You'll often think, is card clean or am I just having trouble seeing it?
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Jason,

You are 100% correct. Most people who I know want marks cards that are easy to see. They simply do not understand that light and subtle is far better.
As they say in the stock market "Bears win, Bulls win, but, Pigs loose".

Bottom line don't mark every card, don't make the marks easy for you to see and your will be around to be very successful. Don't be a "pig" by marking every card with easy to read marks.

But, then again, I know that most people will not listen...oh well.... to each his own Smile
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tommy
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The basis of ink used on playing cards is colour and vanish, the latter being the carrier of the former. The finish is clear varnish of one sort or another. In my view, the perfect carrier for card making solutions would be the very varnish used by the manufacturer for the card finish.

Not being a mind reader I do not know the stuff you are thinking of. I can say though that the powder we have is certainly excited by the IR LEDs fitted around the lens of our IR sensitive camera which sees it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On Jan 25, 2020, Expertmagician wrote:
Jason,

You are 100% correct. Most people who I know want marks cards that are easy to see. They simply do not understand that light and subtle is far better.
As they say in the stock market "Bears win, Bulls win, but, Pigs loose".

Bottom line don't mark every card, don't make the marks easy for you to see and your will be around to be very successful. Don't be a "pig" by marking every card with easy to read marks.

But, then again, I know that most people will not listen...oh well.... to each his own Smile


Considering the number of players that get caught using the product you're associated with, your advice is questionable at best.
If you feel obliged to call me out here in the forum, I'll be happy to share all the details.
Mr. Bones
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tommy
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If one looks at the reported cases where somebody has been caught using daub in a casino it often down to greed.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Mr. Bones posted this in regard to Expertmagcian's post above.

Quote:
On Jan 28, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:

Considering the number of players that get caught using the product you're associated with, your advice is questionable at best.


Just curious, what product are you referring to and can you elaborate further. (I am not up on what products forum members are currently selling.)
Cliff Rusnick
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Jason, Thanks for your input. I guess it's not completely uncommon to mark more than just "high card" or not.

As for the suggestion comment. I understand very well what you guys meant about a suggestion. I am by no means new to the gambling scene. I have done many tests with marked cards, juice and luminous etc, I understand exactly what a suggestion would be. I always try to get the marks as light as possible in person, but when I try to film an update for someone or anything like that, the marks are pretty invisible on camera.

My guess is that a professionally applied mark with daub would practically not appear on camera at all? Would this be true?

Tommy- thanks for the tip about the varnish. I realize it's hard to find that specific varnish, but it's conveniently sold on the same website that sells litzau.
I wouldn't have thought to use a varnish like that, but it makes sense and would almost allow for any kind of powder or pigment to be sealed into the card, even if the solution would ruin the card's finish had it not been mixed with varnish.

As for the excitable powder we were discussing. The one I am referring to can only be, or is mostly only excited by lasers of a specific wavelength. All the LEDs I've seen are just below or above the excitation range of the pigment to which I am referring. However, we should be talking about the same pigment due to what you say about it, and the name you called it. In which case, the LEDs are not exciting the pigment on your cards, they should be simply illuminating the area with IR light. Your camera can pick up the markings because in the IR spectrum, the ink should be blocking all the ir light, thus no color reflects off of it.. Does it look black on camera? If so, it is blocking IR light. If it glows or fluoresces, it is being excited by the light. This same pigment you are referring to might glow a bright green in the visible spectrum when simulated by a specific wavelength of laser light.
Maybe you should look into that. Could be an easy way to get busted lol. Someone only has to bring that laser and your cards will light up like a Christmas tree.

Mr bones, are you referring to ultra luminous?
I thought that would be a much better alternative to classic luminous daubs. Admittedly, I can see some of the "ultra luminous juice dust" on the back of the card without the filter in his demo video, but it overall looked much brighter than any luminous mark I've seen... Which to me means you could make the mark insanely subtle and still see it well. But I am very interested in hearing how or why so many people are getting caught with it. I thought the pigment was supposed to be practically invisible without filters?
tommy
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The book I mentioned above is called Optical Document Security - Rudolf L. van Renesse. It may be out of print and somewhat outdated now. The place to go to see the latest materials is the big printing trade shows, like IPEX. It is not only the materials one can see there but also the devices that see or read them.
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Tommy
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Quote:
On Jan 24, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:

Speaking of powder, I had a question regarding "juice dust" or powdered forms of daub...

In my messing around with the litzau stuff, I made a type of "juice dust", however it's much more messy than a typical paste or chunky powdered classic daub. I've seen the types of bags that expertmagician sells his juice dust in, and it all seems more messy no matter how you look at it. Do pros actually prefer a powdery dry substance like this? Or are they typically still slightly on the paste/packable (compressible) powder side?


In my many years of experience, I have never seen a pro hustler, and I have known quite few in my lifetime, who used juice dust, daub dust, daub powder or any kind of powdery substance for daub use in play. It is not controllable and it is tremendously messy. Pros use either a soft or medium daub, or better still for complete controlability, a hard daub is best. That is from direct experience, not from reading books or from talking to supposed gambling experts. It must go on the same each and every time---no exception. Exceptions produce too strong a hit which are known as "screamers," in hustler terminology...work that is so strong it can be seen by others.

Quote:
Steve mentions that usually almost always, the center or off center of the card is hit. This would denote a high card or desired card depending on the game played... but earlier cag's reference to the marks on the cards only being suggestions and having to guess the value right, indicates that he would be marking the actual value of the card and not only denoting a high card.


All the cards of the deck are almost never hit on daub plays. You simply don't have the time or accessibility to all the cards during a game. Groups of cards are usually hit depending on the game...high group, medium group and low group are designated for BJ. For Hold'em, high cards would be hit but again rarely if ever are all the card hit when daubing. The middle or off center are the easiest and fastest places to hit a card, but not necessarily the best or the most deceptive. If you hit the center of the card, it must be super-light in strength or it will be too easily seen by others. There are many superior and more deceptive ways to hit cards that are not in the center.

Real world descriptions of how these things are actually done are not necessarily the same as demonstrator or gambling expose descriptions as to how it is applied in the real world.
tommy
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Does anybody here know what Karas was using?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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On Jan 28, 2020, tommy wrote:
If one looks at the reported cases where somebody has been caught using daub in a casino it often down to greed.


A perfect example is Bruce Koloshi. The guy is busted at the L’Auberge Casino in Baton Rouge for marking the entire deck on a Mississippi Stud table with luminous ink in 2013. A dealer became suspicious and reported his behavior to a Shift supervisor. By marking every card Bruce had just over a 200% advantage, however, he would have had just a little under 35% advantage had he of only marked the jacks. He also wouldn't have been caught so easily.

Side note: Daryn Hokie, Surveillence Director at the L'Auberge said looking back he should have realized something was wrong sooner. When he first made contact with Bruce months before they had the evidence for an arrest. His team made Bruce empty his pockets. He had change, keys, and 1 empty contact case. Yet Bruce was wearing glasses. Of course later he found out the contacts were luminous readers used with his glasses.
tommy
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Yes, there have been a few busted lately using invisible ink and contact lenses to see it, which I think is quite a different idea than marking cards in a way that the operator himself can hardly see. I have not seen them in reality only on film where the marks appeared bold and black when seen through the filter.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Wow, thanks for the actual title of the book Tommy. Apparently one of the libraries around me has it.

And thank you Cag for your detailed response regarding the daub dust and where/how cards are hit.

Happy, interesting story.

I was under the impression that luminous systems were always for suckers. Are they becoming sophisticated enough to where pros are giving them a try?... Yet they are still getting busted?

Why do you all suspect that so many get caught using luminous systems? Is it because they don't know how to play the game? They're not subtle cheats? Or because the markings or contacts are actually visible somehow, whether that be through the eye in the sky or a suspicious dealer/player?
Basically, if a mark is invisible, shouldn't it be undetectable in the hands of a pro regardless of the system due to their playing style/ "grift sense"?
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