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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » How It's Done by Edward A. Litzau and daub (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JasonEngland
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On Jan 19, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts and wisdom Jason. I appreciate that you feel as though you know where I am in these stages because you possibly followed a similar path, however I would have to disagree with your placement of me in these stages.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I think you might have the wrong idea about where I am at. Also I feel there are conflicting idea here regarding what daubs are. (One side says there's good daub and huckster daub, the other says "anything is daub, and that's what the pros say")

first, your assumptions are based on the idea that I am curious about daub to USE it as daub, or more accurately: to find out *how daub is used*. However this is not the case. I am not "caught up" in daub formulas since I only know one. I mentioned complex or "fancy" daubs simply because I have special pigments coming in the mail which I hope to experiment with in as many ways possible within my reach. My curiosity partially reaches into these realms because I am interested in the science as well as their application to the hustling world.

I currently have a pigment which is insoluble. My interest in daub stemmed from an attempt to apply the pigment to a card with little success (and not even particularly to denote the value of the cards) . I speculated that possibly a daub substance could apply the pigment more efficiently, but had never seen any before.

(I'm not new to this discipline, I have known for a long time that daub can be any substance. I've heard the stories: ear wax, bit of coffee, newspaper, condensation on the glass of a drink, graphite, makeup and especially Chapstick. I have known for a while that I could just mix any dye with Chapstick to create a substance that creates a subtle stain on a card, even something as simple as Kool aid powder; Hence why I had never seen, purchased or attempted to make daub before. But the consistency of Chapstick is no good for my insoluble pigment)

Thus my search for a formula for real daub began so I could see what the consistency was and to judge if it would be good enough to apply an insoluble powder. Turns out, a classic daub formula is not good enough for my needs in this case.

My mention of an altered daub formula is essentially an entirely different substance than the classic daub and would likely never be used as an ad hoc marking system, but a system which requires pre marking. My purpose is not to learn about how a cheat uses Daub or possibly market daub to people whom I think are hustlers. My purpose is to mark a card in a specific way, in private, for a specific use with a pigment proving hard to work with.

My position is that of problem solving, not curiosity about how a cheat cheats.

Since my markings will still be applied to playing cards, I have to pay attention to previously mentioned details such as dulling or destroying the finish on a card, permanency of a mark vs temporary. Questions I didn't get answers to; therefore pushing me into seemingly getting "caught up" in daub formulas until I got my answers.

Learning a classic daub formula is just an other piece of information to keep under my hat that I learnt in the process of trying to solve my pigment problem, and that's pretty much where it ends... Apart from my experimentation with the "fancy" inks once I get them.

So, in the end, (and separate from me claiming not to be in one of these categories) since the general idea is that anything that marks a card secretly in play is daub, why is "huckster" daub any worse than "real paper player's" daub? If a real paper player can play paper, his technique should be that where any daub is good daub because his technique surpasses the lack of quality in the daub. However, if the daub can make a light marking subtle enough to act identically to what a real paper player would make WITHOUT the skill a pro paper player has, then that would be good daub...No matter who it comes from... No?




Clilff,

All of your points are well taken. I'm not making any assumptions about you. I only know what you've told me. My comment about you being in stage 2 was only a guess - I'm well aware it could be wrong.

I guess my point is, in one sentence of your reply above you talk about knowing "daub can be any substance" and literally 2 lines later you commented about searching for "real daub." Those 2 statements are in direct conflict with one another.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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The idea that any substance can be used for daubing is actually nonsense.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Cagliostro
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On Jan 19, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

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On Jan 18, 2020, Cagliostro wrote

I like that response. It comes from a position of supposed higher authority, demeans the content of the post and the person writing it, and obviates the necessity of further rational discussion.


Your comment was silly and you know it.

Jason


That proves my point. Summarily calling my comment silly does obviate the need for further rational and objective discussion.

As such it is meaningless.

I don’t know what your problem is, Jason. Perhaps it would be better if you step back and rationally explain your position without the derogatory comments or school yard comments like “No Sh*t Sherlock.”
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On Jan 20, 2020, tommy wrote:

The idea that any substance can be used for daubing is actually nonsense.


Precisely. It is an off the cuff comment when guys are joshing around and not to be taken seriously.
Cliff Rusnick
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On Jan 20, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Clilff,

All of your points are well taken. I'm not making any assumptions about you. I only know what you've told me. My comment about you being in stage 2 was only a guess - I'm well aware it could be wrong.

I guess my point is, in one sentence of your reply above you talk about knowing "daub can be any substance" and literally 2 lines later you commented about searching for "real daub." Those 2 statements are in direct conflict with one another.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Jason


Well, as I said I've heard the stories, so I definitely know anything can be used, however usually those stories tell the tale as though someone needed to use something "in a pinch", implying they might use a particular substance regularly but didn't have any when a game came up... or something?... I don't know how many people build up the earwax in their ears enough to mark all the high cards in a game. What if they have an other game the next day? Seems to me, if you're a paper player, and you like to daub cards, you might settle on a preferred substance. If you're going to have to bring something with you every time, why not "real daub"? why bring a newspaper to every game? Why keep touching it? Everyone read the newspaper back when they were still a thing. I'm pretty sure everyone knew it would make your fingers black. Seems highly suspicious.

It seems as though the patrons of this thread can not agree on what daub "is", but the consensus seems to be that there is a professional quality daub that is used, however any substance can be used as daub when needed.

There is clearly a product that is marketed as "daub" and is still sold to this day by the likes of David Malek and others. This is what I was referring to as "real daub". I thought that much would be clear. - A product that the gambling community seems to generally agree upon as a good substance for daubing on cards.

But you see how complicated it gets when I have to word things this way. It's much easier to say "real daub" and hope the reader understands.

I was in search of the paste like substance the gambling community refers to - or sells as "daub" to learn of its consistency.
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Not all soft, adhesive substances would fit the bill but that is an essential quality of any substance used to daub anything. Hard, none adhesive substances do not fit the bill because it is physically impossible to smear such substances onto anything in that state.

That is why perhaps casino chips are hard as opposed to soft and sticky.

Smile
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If you want to learn to move in a casino listen to Rod, if you want to move in your neighborhood Hold’em tournament with aunt Betty and her friends. Follow the brilliant minds of the gambling spot.
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If you want to listen to Rod cross my palm with silver.


I happen to be a direct decedent of the legendary necromancer Erichtho, the Thessalian witch.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Playing paper is about knowing how to play paper, preferably without getting caught. It really doesn't have much at all to do with daub formulas, having much more to do with the actual skill and knowledge of the player.
After all, daub is just "stuff".

I even hear that the "real work" is so basic it can be purchased at the ladies make-up counter at Walgreens ... who knew?
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On Jan 21, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:

Playing paper is about knowing how to play paper, preferably without getting caught. It really doesn't have much at all to do with daub formulas, having much more to do with the actual skill and knowledge of the player.

After all, daub is just "stuff".

I even hear that the "real work" is so basic it can be purchased at the lady’s make-up counter at Walgreens ... who knew?


Playing paper successfully is almost an art form. Whether playing paper, using moves or just scientific play, how you do something or how you "lay the play down" is usually the most important element of all or at least it is critically important.

However, in the case of professional "paint" players, they do take considerable care in the preparation of their daub, shade, juice or whatever they are using. However, the material used for MOST daub, even very good daub, can usually be purchased easily. The secret is knowing what ingredients to use, in what combination and how it is "mixed." However, when mixed correctly and played deceptively, daub is far from "crap" as has been mentioned previously. If fact, some professional paint players of my acquaintance make more money, in fact a lot more money annually, than most "square johns" who have "good" jobs.

However, you are not going to see those formulas and preparation techniques explained on a public forum like "The Gambling Spot." The "stuff" you can buy on line or bandied about by demo experts and magicians quite frankly is mostly garbage from what I have seen. Those preparations are good for card tricks and demonstrations by gambling "experts," not for use under fire.
JasonEngland
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On Jan 20, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
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On Jan 20, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Clilff,

All of your points are well taken. I'm not making any assumptions about you. I only know what you've told me. My comment about you being in stage 2 was only a guess - I'm well aware it could be wrong.

I guess my point is, in one sentence of your reply above you talk about knowing "daub can be any substance" and literally 2 lines later you commented about searching for "real daub." Those 2 statements are in direct conflict with one another.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Jason


Well, as I said I've heard the stories, so I definitely know anything can be used, however usually those stories tell the tale as though someone needed to use something "in a pinch", implying they might use a particular substance regularly but didn't have any when a game came up... or something?... I don't know how many people build up the earwax in their ears enough to mark all the high cards in a game. What if they have an other game the next day? Seems to me, if you're a paper player, and you like to daub cards, you might settle on a preferred substance. If you're going to have to bring something with you every time, why not "real daub"? why bring a newspaper to every game? Why keep touching it? Everyone read the newspaper back when they were still a thing. I'm pretty sure everyone knew it would make your fingers black. Seems highly suspicious.

It seems as though the patrons of this thread can not agree on what daub "is", but the consensus seems to be that there is a professional quality daub that is used, however any substance can be used as daub when needed.

There is clearly a product that is marketed as "daub" and is still sold to this day by the likes of David Malek and others. This is what I was referring to as "real daub". I thought that much would be clear. - A product that the gambling community seems to generally agree upon as a good substance for daubing on cards.

But you see how complicated it gets when I have to word things this way. It's much easier to say "real daub" and hope the reader understands.

I was in search of the paste like substance the gambling community refers to - or sells as "daub" to learn of its consistency.


Again, good points. I just wanted to make sure you didn't get hung up on real or "classical" daub formulas thinking that if you didn't have access to them that you were somehow unable to mark cards (for your needs).

Do professional painters prefer certain formulas? Yes, of course. They like the consistent results they get from using the same stuff over and over again. But there's so much more to it than just having the "right" formula. Give the best daub in the world to a rank beginner and he'll get nowhere with it. Let an experienced pro leave his "real" daub at home and he can still get the money by stopping into a drugstore and experimenting for a few minutes. Ideal? No, but far from impossible. As Cag says in the reply above, (and I agree with him) good daub work is an art form. And yeah, most artists like to have "their" paints. But they can also use just about any paint in a pinch.

As long as you know that, pursue the classic formulas all you like - there is some interesting stuff to be learned from looking at the ingredients and chemistry of them.

Jason
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tommy
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We became familiar with various exotic making substances not through gambling or magic but through the security printing business we were in. There is trade book which as I recall is called something like Optical Markings, which lists all the security inks and the like and it gives a full explanation of them and it comes with a DVD and samples. I have an old copy somewhere. Today most of this stuff can be purchased on the net if you know what you are looking for.
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On Jan 21, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Do professional painters prefer certain formulas? Yes, of course. They like the consistent results they get from using the same stuff over and over again. But there's so much more to it than just having the "right" formula. Give the best daub in the world to a rank beginner and he'll get nowhere with it. Let an experienced pro leave his "real" daub at home and he can still get the money by stopping into a drugstore and experimenting for a few minutes. Ideal? No, but far from impossible. As Cag says in the reply above, (and I agree with him) good daub work is an art form. And yeah, most artists like to have "their" paints. But they can also use just about any paint in a pinch.


When I was a teenager, I would periodically order dice and card work from the KC Card Company, mostly out of curiosity and to learn "how it was done" presumably by those in the know. I learned about KC Card Company, Hunt & Company and other gambling supply houses because they regularly advertised in The National Police Gazette (which had nothing to do with law enforcement.)

One of the items I ordered was different colored daub, Red, Blue, Golden Glow and Silver Sheen. They came in little containers, (called "buttons" by hustlers) and the containers had small safety pins soldered to their backs, presumably to attach the buttons or daub holders to one's clothing (which is very amateurish). Rubbing or "hitting" the button to get some daub on one's finger was called, "Chalking Up" in hustler parlance, none of which I knew at that time.

Of course, I thought I had the "real work" from KC Card Company and in a certain sense it was. The daub was soft and the colors were very strong but as a teenager and would be crooked gambling enthusiast, I thought this was the "real" work. In a sense it was the real work and in a sense it was not. The difference was the user and what he did with the daub and how he used it. A pro could work with this daub by cutting it down considerably, assuming he really wanted to put in on subtly. An amateur would use the daub as it was and wake the dead when he hit a card using this preparation. This daub was really made more for the half-smart chump trade, not for pros.

(KC Card Company supplied gambling supplies and gaffs to professional hustlers, but a good part of their business was done with the half-smart chump class, those who had larceny in their heart and though just by buying a gaff or marked cards or whatever, they could make an easy buck. This half-smart chump class does not realize there is no easy money. The pros that make a lot of money and have done so over the years have paid their dues and put in the time and effort to master what they do. There is no "easy" money just because one has some daub, or a bottom deal or whatever.

Years later, after I moved to Vegas and associated with some of the currently active hustlers, I made my own daub based upon what I learned from these guys. However, to parallel Jason England's comment above on not having the daub with you, I recall that once I was out of daub in Los Angeles and I had to get have some out of necessity. So what I did was go to King and Co which was an active gambling supply house at that time. The daub they had was similar to the daub I bought at the KC Card company years ago. To make a long story short, the base of the daub was okay but the colors were much too strong. So what I had to do was purchase separately a "powdered" preparation from the local art supply (which I won't get into), to thin this daub down, way, way down.

First, I had to reduce it to a very slight shade or haze and secondly to reduce the greasiness of the daub so it did not break the glaze on the back of the card. Finally I also had to harden it because very soft daub is not controllable if you are looking to put it on lightly.

Professional daub, or professional shade, when laid down on a card, is so light it is almost a suggestion that something is there. Almost a hint if you will. The work is on the card but it is not there for all intents and purposes. In fact John Scarne, in the marked card section of Scarne on Cards observed that profession shade players have to be good guessers, which is true. With practice professionally reading good daub or shade is really just glimpsing at the card to get a vague hint to see if something is there. With a lot of practice, you get to where you can read just that "hint" on the fly in a gambling game with just a brief glance and usually guess correctly...AND...on a practical level it is undetectable to any except to another professionally practiced and trained shade reader.

A tremendous of money has been made with professional shade and daub over the years. I would have to say that many who buy the commercial stuff online might have a false sense of confidence that they can detect professional work in a game. However, unless you are very practiced in reading this hint, with good work laid down, on a practical level it would be virtually impossible to see.

Perhaps what I have written above is somewhat inappropriate on The Gambling Spot and gobble gook to many, even though what I have written is only the tip of the iceberg. However, I though it might be nice to briefly comment on how using daub and reading good work is actually done in the real world by pros.
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Cag, so I hear this chant over and over: the stuff you buy is garbage, the stuff pros use is made by Gods.
I'll ask this again to hopefully get an answer this time...what is the difference between the two daubs if they can hypothetically make the *exact same marks?*

from what I've learnt from messing around with the litzau formula, I can make the marks lighter or darker. Not by applying more or less pressure, but by adjusting the consistency of the daub.
Does a pro just want an extremely light mark? From previous posts, we've established that anything too fancy is to be avoided... So regarding marking differences we can only be talking about light/dark, permanent/temporary and possibly how long the ink can streak across the card. The way you talk about it is as if anyone making Daub will fail to create something similar to what the pros use for... X________reasons. But if it's just a matter of how visible the mark is once applied, I fail to see how they are dissimilar.

Jason, thanks for the reply. I understand the points you made well. Studying the classic formulas have been interesting for sure and have given me the insight I needed. In the end I won't be using a substance anything close to classic daub.
Out of curiosity though, after you stopped caring about classic daub formulas due to what Rod told you, did you stop caring all together about daub or did your curiosity just shift to what exactly the pros were using on a regular basis? Ie: specific makeup brands + whatever else makes them so special.

Tommy,
That's very interesting about the book "optical markings". I'm assuming the book itself is probably impossible for someone like me to get right?
I am very aware about security inks and have spent a great deal of time researching inks in general, security inks and browsing the things available on some popular sites like s*a**l and m****x. I prefer to try and source the inks outside of sites like that though since they are generally expensive or shipping is way too much...or the name of the ink is still secret, kinda like how if you look up "how to make makeup from scratch" you won't get something that is close to a daub formula, but someone saying "I bought this base substance, preservative and binder from such and such website" instead of listing ingredients by name which I can look up myself.

I have sourced some security inks and other variants of special pigments through sites like AliExpress and Amazon, but there isn't a very large assortment of security inks on there.

When you say they can be purchased if you know what to look for, do you mean in bulk like for $4000? Or can an average consumer buy a small amount of these? I have tried purchasing some kind of security ink from an other website (which I forget the name of) and they wouldn't sell to me because I was just an average consumer and not a business which would require the ink.
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Cag, thank you for your post. It was very informative for me.
Sorry, I typed up my previous reply before I noticed you had made this post.

Essentially you have answered my question.
A substances a pro would use is just so subtle it is practically invisible. Therefore you could make any daub into good daub with some modifications. Something I would not have known was possible, or how to do, unless I read litzau.

It is understandable that daub being sold on the internet would always be too strong due to the consumer possibly not being as skilled. If they try to apply the daub and see nothing, they may assume their daub is garbage or defective.

So now that I understand the parameters of this daub, I feel anyone who makes daub could essentially make a professional level daub with the known formulas + tweaking, but don't due to not everyone being able to use such a substance. Is this fair to say?
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On Jan 22, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
Professional daub, or professional shade, when laid down on a card, is so light it is almost a suggestion that something is there. Almost a hint if you will.


Cag and I don't always agree (and even when we're saying the same things I sometimes will nitpick about the WAY he says something). But this sentence is spot on. I've said before that reading really faint/light work (whether juice, line shade, triangle shade, or daub) often involves a sort of "trust" that you really are seeing a mark you think you're seeing. But I like Cag's wording better: "just a suggestion" that something is there. Great.

Jason
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On Jan 22, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:

So now that I understand the parameters of this daub, I feel anyone who makes daub could essentially make a professional level daub with the known formulas + tweaking, but don't due to not everyone being able to use such a substance. Is this fair to say?


There is some truth to that observation. There is no magic here. We are initially looking at the skill of the practitioner first and foremost.

However, the daub should meet certain minimum standards. Not all know formulas will do the job because they cannot satisfy the following criteria.

It cannot break the glaze or shine on the back of the card. The first and easiest way that even an amateur can detect daub or shade work is simply by flashing the card back against the light to see if it breaks the shine. Also, it cannot smudge or blotch when you put it on.

It cannot show up under black light. Much standard commercial daub will do so even if put on subtly.

Very importantly it must be controllable so it can be applied consistently each and every time which is why I prefer hard rather than soft mushy daub.

The color, if any, must be blend with the back of the card but does not have to be the same color as the card back. I don't care for red and blue for red and blue cards...too obvious, too old and too passe.

There are more subtle tints that really fool those that look for the standard red, blue, silver or golden colors.

It can be made permanent or made to disappear after a period of time. There are also some eyeglass lenses that can enhance reading daub that is virtually invisible without the glasses. When I say eyeglass lenses, I am not talking about luminous work or infra-red work. Luminous work always has always been a joke and strictly a chump item, and infra-red is passe.

It can be made to either disappear over a period of time or be permanent. Depends if one is making one play or multiple plays and if in a casino play, how carefully the cards will be examined after the play.

With the above caveats under consideration and if the daub meets the above standards, once again it is just a hint regardless of the color used, even if using a standard color which is not recommended. It is hard to describe, which is why it is so deceptive. It is the skill of the practitioner. I have even seen red daub used on blue cards in a pinch. However, it was applied so lightly and was so slight, you just could not see it unless you were already skilled and capable of reading the work to begin with.

I hope this helps but that is about as far as I can go on this.

Also you just can't cut down any commercial daub or just any daub like substance because it will not adhere to all or most of the above standards. Plus, you have to know how to correctly cut it down. But if the stuff you are making up adheres to the above criteria and ends up being simply a hint of something on the card, and you can read that hint by just briefly glancing at it, then you have something good and you are good at reading it. If not...???
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Cliff,

After Rod and I talked, what I came away with was just a larger appreciation that the "daub doesn't make the man" so to speak. Imagine getting hung up on what type of golf clubs Tiger Woods uses and thinking that if only you had his clubs you'd be a better player. It's just not true. You could give me Tiger's clubs and I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with them since I'm not a golfer. Meanwhile, Tiger could clean up at the local municipal course with a set of clubs from Wal-mart. Only if Tiger went to a big tournament would he likely need his clubs to compete at the highest levels.

Daub is similar. Do full-time professional cheaters that specialize in painting up their own cards on the fly want specific combinations of ingredients? Sure they do. Why wouldn't you? But most of them would do just as well using a slightly inferior recipe in a pinch (as Cag alluded to above). How is this possible? If the recipe is so critical, how could they possibly get by with anything less than EXACTLY the right combination of ingredients?

Well, it's because daub doesn't make the man and if you really understand the concepts and ideas behind daub, you start to realize that the recipes are NOT that critical to the vast majority of applications. Only at the highest levels of scrutiny might a specific recipe make a difference.

Jason

PS: Forte's Casino Game Protection has a section that delineates the differences between "classic daub" and "daub substitutes." He makes the case that just about anything that can be smeared onto the back of a card can be (and has been used as) a "daub" (of sorts). My claim that "anything can be used as daub" is probably hyperbole, but it's largely true if you don't try to take the comment literally. That idea comes from talking with guys like Rod and Steve about this (and other, similar) things. I'm much more interested in concepts and the intersection of ideas/techniques than getting caught up in one particular recipe or formula for accomplishing something.
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Thank you to both Cag and Jason for your contributions to this conversation. I'm not qualified to talk about any of the topics discussed, but I greatly appreciate both of you taking the time to answer the question.

Cag, your story isn't perceived as "gobble gook" in any way. Quite the opposite, it's extremely interesting and informative, especially as I can recognize myself in the way you describe yourself as teenager, so I try to learn as much as possible from your posts. Thank you very much for your very detailed answers!
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On Jan 23, 2020, Scodischarge wrote:

Cag, your story isn't perceived as "gobble gook" in any way. Quite the opposite, it's extremely interesting and informative, especially as I can recognize myself in the way you describe yourself as teenager, so I try to learn as much as possible from your posts. Thank you very much for your very detailed answers!


You are quite welcome. Glad it was helpful.
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