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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Moves that will probably be in forte's new book (video) (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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Cag is one who knows the cashier's cage.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cliff Rusnick
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Ok Tommy, whatever it's fine, let's move on. I didn't claim it was new or that I invented it, and you didn't say that I made those claims apparently so we're all good then.


To get back on topic...I realise stripping is the most straight forward way of moving cards from the top to the bottom, but to me, stripping the deck down to the last four cards, or just any slugs smaller than 10 cards looks peculiar.

When you shuffle and cut normally, do you end the sequence with cutting the deck at the 4th card from the top? ...I would be sus if you did. When the deck is passed for the cut, have you ever seen anyone cut 4 cards off the top? I'd be sus if they did.

Either way, for me, cutting or stripping slugs that are less than 10 cards looks amateur. I try to avoid that at all costs.

With this move, you have precise control of how many cards you're moving around with much more accuracy than just hoping you're stripping the last 4 cards.
Also, with the more complex version, you can let go of the deck after the last shuffle and cleanly square it before doing the last 3 cuts.


Anyway, I didn't get to buy a copy of the book since I am poor. So maybe once the books start arriving, someone can let me know if this is in it haha.
tommy
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I only hope Forte does not reveal the Glenn Bishop way, which is a well-guarded secret.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Kimura
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Incidentally, lots of top to bottom stuff on instagram. so even if you havent excited the green forum semantics peeps, you've become an influencer of some kind
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Feb 16, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:

To get back on topic...I realize stripping is the most straight forward way of moving cards from the top to the bottom, but to me, stripping the deck down to the last four cards, or just any slugs smaller than 10 cards looks peculiar.


You are correct. There are a couple of ways that are very simple to get around that. Think about it.

Quote:
When the deck is passed for the cut, have you ever seen anyone cut 4 cards off the top? I'd be sus if they did.


Evidently you don't play cards. There is a minimum number of cards you must cut for the cut to be legitimate in any decent game.

The main hint I can give you is you are working too hard to accomplish what you are doing, it looks like effort is being expended on what should look like a simple shuffling and cutting of the deck. Might want to keep that in mind.

"Art is in the concealment of art."

Quote:
Anyway, I didn't get to buy a copy of the book since I am poor. So maybe once the books start arriving, someone can let me know if this is in it haha.


I'm sure tommy will get to you as quickly as he can on this, although there may be a slight delay in his doing so. The book evidently is being sent to England by tramp steamer and then by horse drawn cart to tommy's small cabin in Stonehenge. Smile
tommy
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There are more ways of cutting than one, according to Scarne;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeK-hD_g7eM
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Cliff Rusnick
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Cag, I was trying to think about ways around stripping small packets... That's what lead me to what I showed here.

It's not like I only know one way to move cards around. Sure you could cut cards above or below the slug before stripping if you have a break, but how do you get that break in the right spot without fiddling around? That's the hardest part. I can't see how "just stripping" the deck will give you a break at the right place.

And yes cag, I don't play cards for money, I mentioned that several times in the last thread we were participating in. No need for the pedantic/condescending, comments. I was simply pointing out that no one would think cutting 4 cards is normal.

As for the "expending effort" part. What about it looks like I'm expending more effort than a shuffle and cut?
This move is very similar to things forte does. Why is it too much work when I do it but genius when he does it?

The quote "art is in the concealment of art" can only apply to the magic and gambling world. Art is meant to be shown off.
by the context of your post however, and telling me to "keep that in mind" seems like you're saying that what I did was so obvious that I didn't realize I should be trying to disguise my moves after 16 years of practicing gambling sleights... Seems rather insulting...I mean some of what you say seems like you're trying to help in your own way, but lots of it seems rather insulting and patronizing. Which way are you coming from cag?
Cagliostro
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@Cliff Rusnick: No problem. Wasn't meant to be offensive or condescending. I was trying to be helpful but in the future will not comment on any posts or queries you make.

Problem solved. Smile
Cliff Rusnick
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Ok, maybe you can understand that that was very unclear, as your help sounded more like criticism.

And you definitely took a jab (be it slight or not) by saying "evidently you don't play cards"... Yes, and I have been upfront about that. The comment felt underhanded.

Imagining a helpful post, I was expecting something more like: "don't stumble at this part" or "you take too long doing this".
Not: "your sleight is supposed to be hidden", "clearly you don't play cards" or it looks like you're doing it differently than how I know. You should do it differently. Think about it"...I guess that's my bad.

I see you were trying to help, but it seemed like a half rude way to do it...and no disrespect, in the end what you offered was more like the beginning of help where you say "there's an easier way to do that", but end the conversation there.

if there's no substance to go off of in the conversation, then really, where's the line between helping and just criticism?

If you feel like you can't reply to my posts anymore... then I feel sorry that you will forever have to remember my name to avoid it Smile
Mr. Bones
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Some people don't want to be helped apparently Cag ... they'd rather just "talk" instead.
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Cliff Rusnick
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Mr. Bones, what am I doing wrong? I thought this was a forum for "talking"...?

I would love to be helped, but where is it? It seems like there's a lot of the "you're doing that wrong" type of help going around and not much of the "this is what your doing wrong" type of help... And then the follow ups: "this is how you do it better" or " instead I prefer to use this"

I asked a bunch of questions that would actually help me in the post that you two just replied to, and instead of answering any of them, you instead say "some people don't want help" and "ok I'm not talking to you anymore"

I don't get it.. what's the secret password? Where's the Codex to decrypt how to talk to you guys? Gambling spot to English dictionary?
tommy
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Some fellas have the books now anyway and so will able to see if it is your way or some other way in it. That is the question, that nobody seems to have given you the answer to yet.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Bones
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Cliff, it's all pretty informal and irreverent around here.
Cag's advice is golden, so rather than accuse him of insulting you, just roll with it and enjoy the interaction with folks who are as interested in the same things you are.
We can all be a bit of a dick at times, but it's never personal (mainly because most of us don't actually know one another except through the forum)

In a nutshell ... don't bother with questions/statements like "I don't get it.. what's the secret password? Where's the Codex to decrypt how to talk to you guys? Gambling spot to English dictionary?"
Anyway, you're as welcome here as anybody else is, and free to post as you see fit to. There is no "secret" password.

Pro Tip: Just read, share, respond, and enjoy.
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Scodischarge
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Cliff, the "trouble" with Cag's posts - as far as I've read them - is that he rarely says something clearly. He seems to expect us to read between the lines and wants us to work things out for ourselves, providing us only with hints as to what we should be thinking about (there are exceptions, his posts on daub in a recent thread were extremely insightful). This seems to be your main issue right now: Understandably, you want clear advice!

All right, I'm done with the psychiatry session. My point is: His advice is pretty good, even if it's a bit cryptical at times. That said, though I'm not nearly the best person to do so, let me expand a bit on Cag's advice: "The main hint I can give you is you are working too hard to accomplish what you are doing, it looks like effort is being expended on what should look like a simple shuffling and cutting of the deck. Might want to keep that in mind."

I've watched your videos on riffle stacking and false shuffles (both about two years old), and I assume your natural shuffling style is still pretty fluid and quick. That's what these riffles lack: You hesitate at the critical moment when you shuffle the slug down. The boxing action also looks - as Cag says - as though you're doing an unusual amount of work in this simple action.
Both points hold true for the other sequences as well. The riffle shuffles themselves don't look too bad (quite the opposite, actually), but the cutting actions are too hesitant and tense to look natural (to me). Loosen up!
You can make the riffle shuffles themselves look a lot better by heeding a bit of advice Steve Forte gives: Don't just lay the slug on top of the deck, but actually riffle the cards off your thumb. You shuffle the slug under ten cards or so? Go the extra mile and riffle those cards off your thumb, instead of just laying them on top.

All that said, I really like the techniques themselves. Put in a bit more practice, and I believe they'll look really good!
Concerning the question of whether these moves are included in the book: The principle of shuffling a slug into the deck is of course included, but I haven't seen it described with the aim of getting a top slug to the bottom and vice versa. Maybe something on that is included in the stunts section.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2020, Scodischarge wrote:

Cliff, the "trouble" with Cag's posts - as far as I've read them - is that he rarely says something clearly. He seems to expect us to read between the lines and wants us to work things out for ourselves, providing us only with hints as to what we should be thinking about (there are exceptions, his posts on daub in a recent thread were extremely insightful). This seems to be your main issue right now: Understandably, you want clear advice!


Very insightful observation but if I may suggest, there is no "trouble" with my posts...any "trouble" that arises is with the reader. Let me explain:

I have a lifetime of knowledge on this subject. I have associated with some of the very best hustlers in my day, sometimes under fire in serious situations, have experienced the earlier "crazy" days of Vegas where anything went, and you would not believe the things I had to do and the hard experience undertaken over the years to obtain this knowledge. It was a long and arduous road I traveled. AND, we are not talking about DEMO knowledge here. We are talking about under fire real work experience, in casinos and in high stakes private games.

Many in the demo crowd think they are entitled to know things simply because they exist. (LIke the philosopher Rene Descartes, "I think therefore I am.")

Look, like it or not, I am not about to spoon feed the information that I impart from time to time that took a lifetime to acquire. So, anyone who thinks they are entitled to know what I know not only for free but without any effort on their part is dreaming.

Much of what I know I am not going to write about anyway - it is not meant for this or any forum for that matter. This is a magician/demo/cardman forum so I confine my posts mostly to demo/magician /expose classic "move" type material.

But even the posts I do write are not meant for everyone. This is a free and open forum. When you read my posts, you have to think and work at what is being said. If one is too lazy to do that, or they are looky-loos drifting into the the forum from time to time and/or don't have the knowledge and understanding to pick up on what I am saying or implying, my posts are not for them. They are not going to understand by design.

Plus, one learns better if he has to think and work at something rather than being spoon fed.

However, any demo guy who is upset because I am not going to spoon feed him with knowledge, well, anyone with that type attitude is living in a pussycat make believe demo world and would last about 30 seconds among a group of real time pro hustlers...and...they would not be polite like me in their response.

So...if anyone does not care for that approach, don't read my posts.

Simple...huh!
Scodischarge
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
Very insightful observation but if I may suggest, there is no "trouble" with my posts...any "trouble" that arises is with the reader.


I understand, Cag. That's why "trouble" was put in quotation marks; another way to put it would have been: "The problem you seem to have with Cag's posts ..."
I don't mean to take a shot at Cliff with this, since I might just as well add: "... and the problem I have as well, from time to time."

To be a little melodramatic, there are two sides at war with one another in my soul: The part that wants to learn, as much as possible, as quickly as possible, as easy as possible.
Then there's the part that completely understands your point of view: Of course you won't give the information you had to work long and hard for away for free, least of all the techniques still in use, least of all to a demonstrator! Also:
Quote:
But even the posts I do write are not meant for everyone. This is a free and open forum. When you read my posts, you have to think and work at what is being said. If one is too lazy to do that, or they are looky-loos drifting into the the forum from time to time and/or don't have the knowledge and understanding to pick up on what I am saying or implying, my posts are not for them. They are not going to understand by design.

Plus, one learns better if he has to think and work at something rather than being spoon fed.

While the lazy part of me may not like it, you're absolutely right, of course. If you discover a technique or principle for yourself, you learn to value it so much more than if you're getting spoon-fed.

That said, thank you very much for the information you do post. While I don't understand everything you write, I try to take away what I can and learn from it.
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I think a lot of folks come by this forum looking to demonstrate their "amazing" gambling moves, and expecting others in the forum to blow smoke up their a_s telling them how good they are.

Fortunately, that's never been a hallmark of this forum, and it likely never will be.

If folks want honest critique, they'll get it here.
If folks come here looking for praise ("faint" or otherwise) they'll likely be very disappointed (unless you're really, really good - and there are a few folks who visit the forum and are indeed "really, really good")
Mr. Bones
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tommy
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Another way of doing it is with, what top hustlers call, a reverse count; not many people know that.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2020, tommy wrote:

Another way of doing it is with, what top hustlers call, a reverse count; not many people know that.


Tommy, you are the only one on this forum that has continually and repeatedly gone over my head completely with his commentary. Smile
tommy
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If one counts the cards it reverses their order.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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