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WitchDocChris
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I've been debating posting this, but we'll see where it goes.

How many of you sell videos of the show afterwards?
How many of you sell 'other' hypnosis products like audio programs that help you sleep, etc. after the show?
And what percentage would you say those sales make up of your income for any given show? On average, of course.

I ask because I've been looking into shifting into hypnosis shows more seriously (with training first, don't worry guys), and I keep seeing people online talk about doing BOR sales, but I never actually see it in the shows I attend. Now, I've seen very few hypnosis shows so it's entirely possible I'm seeing the outliers. So I'm curious - how common is this any more?
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Mindpro
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To answer your questions as a starting point, I do. I still sell DVDs and USB drives (with full packaging) before (in advance) and following my shows. Most of my sales are done in the 4 weeks prior to the show (via my contract and business model), about 25% following the show (but this is market-based).

In any business, there needs to be multiple sources of revenue, and this is a decent one in my business, for all of my shows, hypnosis and others.

I, however, do not use a BOR approach but rather a merch approach, as I also have t-shirts, hats, books, photos, posters, and the cd/audio programs you've mentioned.

On a smaller show or a slow day (or night) I may sell 20-25, on a good one anywhere from 75-125. Often times I could make more on my merch than on my fee (as with many performing artists). Now, this is an art and a science and you have to have the business behind it to make it all possible, which of course starts with a show others would want to pay to have/keep of their own. It is part of my business model NOT just something extra or added on. Much also depends on your market(s) and size of the audience. When I do comedy clubs I may only sell 15 or 20, but in a packed theater show of 1200, of course much more. I've also created a demand for my DVDs which propels sales.

I've curious to learn more about your shift, because, and no offense meant by this but based on the things you've offered I do not think this would work out too well for you with your approach of a non-comedy-based hypnosis show. Much of what they want to buy is to re-live the fun and comedy of the presentation, especially if they or someone they know is in the performance.

You see this (BOR/Merch sales) quite commonly at fair and festival shows, cruise ships, theater shows, comedy club shows, colleges, schools, and tourist area hypnosis shows.

So for myself and others I've trained or coached/consulted, it is quite common and actually quite the norm.

I be cautious about what is online or in hypnosis forums as truth be told most do not know how to do this well or properly. So many (invest) spend all the money, time and effort and yet do not know how to sell this properly.

You may want to also post this in Tricky Business as several of my students may discuss this as well as it has become a great part of their revenue-generating aspect of their entertainment business. You will also possibly see some magician's mentalities and approaches and their lack of results there as well.

How common is it any more? Here's my honest answer - to real stage hypnotists it is still quite common. However, to today's' DJ, magician, bizzarist, or comedian-turned-hypnotists, not very common at all.

I hope this helps.
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
I've curious to learn more about your shift, because, and no offense meant by this but based on the things you've offered I do not think this would work out too well for you with your approach of a non-comedy-based hypnosis show. Much of what they want to buy is to re-live the fun and comedy of the presentation, especially if they or someone they know is in the performance.


The short answer is that my current approach to performance is no longer serving my needs. My goal is to write a comedy based show that doesn't annoy me (again - with the guidance of a professional stage performer), and develop those skills that can only be learned on stage in front of audiences. Either I will figure out how to create a show that is not comedy based, eventually, or I will determine it's not possible. I know it doesn't come across on these forums, but I can actually be funny when I want to.

Quote:
I be cautious about what is online or in hypnosis forums as truth be told most do not know how to do this well or properly. So many (invest) spend all the money, time and effort and yet do not know how to sell this properly.


Absolutely. Everything on the internet is iffy in my mind. Hence my wanting to ask professionals.

Quote:
You may want to also post this in Tricky Business as several of my students may discuss this as well as it has become a great part of their revenue-generating aspect of their entertainment business. You will also possibly see some magician's mentalities and approaches and their lack of results there as well.


Sure, I can do that.

I do understand the multiple-revenue stream thing, and the shows/possible BOR is only one thing I'm thinking of in that regard. I've been working on building other ones that don't apply to this particular forum. A couple people I know who are successful in their businesses have said that 5 streams is a good kind of rule of thumb and that's kind of where I am aiming - with some in the magic/mystery world and some outside.

I appreciate your response.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Dannydoyle
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Well first off ANY BOR sales are going to be determined solely by one factor. IF they enjoy the show. Then it goes from there to how much and what they are willing to purchase.

Problems with BOR in most cases is there are diminishing returns. IF people like you, and they repeat seeing the show, then your BOR sales will go down even if the show is better.

Interesting that you say your current approach is not meeting your needs. You may not want to hear this but you were told this a LONG time ago. I really am curious as to what epiphany happened to make you change what was your extremely rigid belief?

As for BOR I do provide video after the show. I simply send them a link in their email. SO many people simply do not have a DVD player, even in the computer any more. It is interesting. Tech has made it SO easy to do this. I simply send them a link in the email and they can download it as many times as they like. A DVD burner is no longer even a necessary component of this and it is BETTER that it is not! Working for younger people it is the way to go. IF you run into the occasional people who DO want a physical copy it is easy enough to send one.

I would not personally (And I guess I should say I DO NOT.) provide any of the stop smoking or any other nonsense. Reason being is there is a HUGE failure rate with such programs. Most never will work anyhow, and to be honest there is a body of work that says it actually HURTS the process. Point being is once they have left the glow of your show and are home you have left them with a final memory of "yea show was good, but I still smoke". Why would you want to leave that with them? For extra money? In the age of the internet this can REALLY backfire on you!

Sell a clever T-Shirt, sell a cool hat, sell anything BUT something that will be sold based on it will "improve" them in some way and having it fail. Leaving them with a constant reminder of how it doesn't work is not cool. They will be telling the story of how it doesn't work and was a waste of money. I used to watch "Raven" back in the 90's at comedy clubs. He spent a HUGE amount of time after the show dealing with complaints about products he sold 6 months earlier not working. It is simply an image that is not worth the money to me.

Working at the resorts, I don't want that association to fall back on them either. Giving them copies of the show is easy, they get what they pay for. Working in the same spots like comedy clubs or wherever I personally think it is a bad look to have that out there. (For those who do it, cool. It is an opinion only. I have nothing to say about what others do in this regard. Some do it quite successfully and I am not saying it is bad. I am simply saying I do not do it is all.)

I also am not a fan of using a BOR to make up for not having a good fee. The idea of "I'll take the show at less than normal so I can sell BOR and make up the difference" is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. As I stated earlier BOR tends to trend down at repeat bookings. Counter intuitive but true. You can end up with a LOT of money tied up in inventory and it is not a great thing.

Charge the fee you are worth, or don't do the show. BOR is simply extra and should not be a replacement for a fee. I know this again is not the conventional wisdom. Many think you just get the show at any price and bang em for BOR. Cool. That is a business model. Again I am not saying it is wrong or bad, just not my way is all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kevinuncanny
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Hey Danny,

So you just go from camera to computer then sell the download?

I'm soon to get away from DVD's as well
Mindpro
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The problem with giving just a link or download is there is nothing physical or no branding for them to have in their hands, refer to later or get excited about. At least with the USB there are cases the exact same as DVD cases, but with a slot for the USB which still can serve the same physical purpose as a DVD. This holds a much greater value and proved the same fulfillment as a DVD or video before it.
Dannydoyle
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What I do is I do NOT provide it immediately at the show.

I approach it very odd. When I developed this method it was at all inclusive resorts. Nobody carried money, and certainly not American money. (With Pay Pal, and Square Cash and all the apps it really has not been an issue, but these apps have only recently really come into their own.)

I was at a different resort 6 nights a week. Trying to carry everything needed to produce on site was just simply not worth the money.

The camera I have uses a digital memory card. It is a HD camera and is as high quality as they come.

I take the card and download it to the computer. I get it to my wife who then adds titles, edits the induction and makes it all pretty. Then she puts it online, and sends the link in the email to the end user. I can be in Mexico and my wife in Spain and it still takes quite little to get this done with Dropbox or "Wetransfer" or any of the file sending sites.

Here is the strange part. If people don't have money or access to the account or what not, I send a DVD anyhow and tell them to get me the money the easiest way possible. Since I have literally zero in cost to send them a link it is nothing for me to do this. I have not had a single person NOT send me the money! Some send a check, (Older people LOL.) some PayPal it later, or what not but it ALWAYS comes in. Also I have sold more this way than any other.

I don't want to worry about saving shows online, and blah blah blah that goes with waiting for them to send money then sending the video. I had a guy send a PayPal literally 2 months later! But it got to me.

It removes ALL the hard sale nonsense. And if you don't seem like you are pitching something, people want to talk with you more. Hard sell tactics often shut people down. That is my experience anyhow.

But send me a PM I can be more specific. I don't want to hijack this topic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
The problem with giving just a link or download is there is nothing physical or no branding for them to have in their hands, refer to later or get excited about. At least with the USB there are cases the exact same as DVD cases, but with a slot for the USB which still can serve the same physical purpose as a DVD. This holds a much greater value and proved the same fulfillment as a DVD or video before it.


Yea no.

The "branding" game is different with this generation and with new tech. THIS is how they experience music! PLUS you do the "branding" IN the video. Also how long exactly do you think this generation keeps a DVD case or a USB drive? If you think it is ANY LONGER than it takes to copy the material to a hard drive you are older than I thought LOL.

The link in the email is the new tech. Just like the DVD replaced the video cassette and the USB replaced the DVD the link in the email is a replacement for the USB. It is the way the world is moving. If you worry about branding then a post card or something can suffice as well. Easy. Put whatever you want on the card.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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I can see your point because of the market you are in, however, in my primary market, it is different. They DO keep the video, or DVD for 10 and 20 years to be played again at a specific time, It was part of the process the way it was sold, do they respond accordingly. I still get orders for shows from 20 and 25 years ago for this specific purpose.

So this is a bot different in my case. This is also why up to 75% of mine are pre-sold in advance, again because of my specific business model
Dannydoyle
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For 10 or 20 years ago is a generation of tech.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
Interesting that you say your current approach is not meeting your needs. You may not want to hear this but you were told this a LONG time ago. I really am curious as to what epiphany happened to make you change what was your extremely rigid belief?


Personal reasons. I've never denied that my previous approach wouldn't work for a professional performer. Which is why I'm changing the approach, now that I am wanting to increase the performance side of things.

Quote:
The link in the email is the new tech. Just like the DVD replaced the video cassette and the USB replaced the DVD the link in the email is a replacement for the USB. It is the way the world is moving. If you worry about branding then a post card or something can suffice as well. Easy. Put whatever you want on the card.


Even USB drives are becoming less common. Lots of people get buy with just a tablet or smart phone, and apparently some of the newer models of Apple laptops don't have USB drives? I put a question mark because I'm not an Apple user but I've had folks tell me this.

One thing I've heard which may be the best of both worlds is printing business cards with a code on the back. The code is basically a coupon that allows one to download whichever video product from the performer's site.

Quote:
Here is the strange part. If people don't have money or access to the account or what not, I send a DVD anyhow and tell them to get me the money the easiest way possible. Since I have literally zero in cost to send them a link it is nothing for me to do this. I have not had a single person NOT send me the money! Some send a check, (Older people LOL.) some PayPal it later, or what not but it ALWAYS comes in. Also I have sold more this way than any other.


I've heard this before. Probably somewhere around the Café but I feel like it may have been an interview I was listening to? Can't remember where specifically, though.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Dannydoyle
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It was me. I've said it before.

And I should correct. I send a link, not a DVD.

I don't understand though. You had one approach and didn't care about money, and now suddenly money is an issue?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I don't understand how you go from it is a serious presentation and all that and what you were so adamant about to wanting to do the very things you so hate and are so bored but?

You had some very strong views on what you liked and didn't. Suddenly it is 180 degrees the other way. I'm just curious how beliefs change so radically. Also unless you are just a gifted actor trying to do something you do hate and disagree with well be very difficult. If you don't enjoy in some part what you are doing, at least at the beginning it is going to be very tough to learn.

I am not trying to bust your chops or anything like that. I am just curious is all. I mean it still seems as if you don't particularly like comedy hypnosis shows at all and yet you are setting out to do one. You are setting an incredibly difficult task for yourself. A tough task if you enjoy it much less don't like them at all. It would be easier to stay the course with the show you like doing.

I am also very curious as to what shows you are attending? No names I guess but they all seem just so odd to me. You don't find them amusing, you don't find them entertaining, and you don't see guys selling a DVD after the show. The shows I have attended I have NEVER ONCE seen someone NOT selling a copy of the show afterwards. I think I mean that literally, at least since the year 2000. Back when you had to carry all sorts of duplicating equipment and lots of VCRs and such yea fewer did it on a grand scale. But since tech shrunk up I have not met anyone NOT doing it because it is such an easy sell.

Sales to tend to trend downwards since the inception of the cell phone. Again I am a strange bird in that I don't care if they video the show from their phone. I don't care if they take pictures and I don't care if they post it on social media. An entire generation now seems to experience life through that little 2 inch screen. Not my job to change that. I tell them they CAN and it seems that they want to do it less. I let them know a video is offered after the show so they can sit back and just enjoy. If the do it they do it. I don't need the stress of watching and trying to stop them and looking like a jerk if I do.

I don't recommend my way mind you. It is just that, my way. It is not something I say is the "right" way or even a "good" way, just my way. Again I say that I am not making a claim that anything anyone else is doing is wrong. Please take no offense at the things I put forth as they are simply an opinion. They are however an opinion of a person who for the past 30 years has done about 300 shows a year so in EVERY environment you can possibly imagine from the best to the worst, so I would maintain there is at least some merit to them.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Feb 19, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am also very curious as to what shows you are attending? No names I guess but they all seem just so odd to me. You don't find them amusing, you don't find them entertaining, and you don't see guys selling a DVD after the show. The shows I have attended I have NEVER ONCE seen someone NOT selling a copy of the show afterwards. I think I mean that literally, at least since the year 2000. Back when you had to carry all sorts of duplicating equipment and lots of VCRs and such yea fewer did it on a grand scale. But since tech shrunk up I have not met anyone NOT doing it because it is such an easy sell.



Yeah, just for the sake of understanding, context and perhaps growth/evolvement I too would like to understand the change in perspective too. Is this why you were "hesitant" to bring this up? (I have my own theory on this but would like to see if I am correct or close?)

I believe I have said this to WitchDocChris here before, I believe those who he has seen do hypnosis shows were not true stage hypnotists, but rather magicians or others attempting to perform the newer type of "hypnosis-for-magicians, DJs. Comedians, jugglers, and janitors. I never thought he has experienced a true hypnosis show from a truly skilled, trained and experienced stage hypnotist. I say this not to blast him or these others, but to simply say perhaps your perspective on stage hypnosis is skewed or limited by these limited-skilled performers. And WitchDocChrsi would not be alone in this as there is now a whole generation of these types of performers (men and women) at magic conventions and even Hypnothoughts, the guild, etc.

Part of attemoting to be serious or any type of professional in anything is first being able to separte these types guys and gals fromt the true professionals.
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
I don't understand though. You had one approach and didn't care about money, and now suddenly money is an issue?


Yeah. Is that really so hard to understand? Life happens, needs change.

I am picky about the things I like to watch/experience. But not liking what I have seen offered doesn't mean I can't create something I enjoy doing.

And yes, my distaste for generic comedy hypnosis was a factor in hesitating on posting this subject. I knew it would come up and end up being a focal point which doesn't contribute to the question, but what can you do. Although I perhaps need to clarify - My distaste for comedy hypnosis is in regards to the generic shows. Just as I dislike pretty much any cookie cutter show, whether it's magic, mentalism, comedy, music, or anything else where someone gets on stage and just copies what they've seen other people do successfully without giving it any of their own personality. I'm not saying the entire genre of comedy hypnosis is awful.

The way I see it is this - I have a particular type of show I'd like to create. I have thus far been unable to do that myself, so I need more training. No one offers the training for specifically what I want to do, so I will have to start with what's available and build from there. Who knows, maybe being on the performer side will make it more enjoyable but regardless, I trust a good trainer to take my input and help me build a show that works both for me and for the audience.

As for shows, I have seen very few live, and quite a few videos hoping to find shows to see live. There's a guy who's name currently escapes me in Vegas I'll probably try to see next time I'm there. If you guys have any suggestions of good examples, let me know and I'll keep them on my radar.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Dannydoyle
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Yea clarification seems necessary and thank you for providing it for us. While you want to run from the question, not answering it would have made it much harder to understand. I mean you have to admit you were VERY adamant about your position, and you did not make it clear at ALL that your distaste was for cookie cutter shows, but rather for comedy hypnosis shows. So yea some clarification was needed.

Even within the genre of comedy hypnosis there is room for different styles and different approaches. I am sorry you have only seen the one boring style and I guess that is what it is. I am not certain what "training" you will actually need. I mean if you can hypnotize people at that point it becomes structuring a show. Which you say is your strong suit. It is possible that getting "trained" may put you in the same boat as everyone else!

I mean no disrespect to you or training per se so don't take this wrong. BUT if you are worried about being like everyone else, then getting trained like everyone else might not be the way to go.

You know how to hypnotize people, go forth and do so! You know all the safety stuff you need, you know how to build a show. Don't be afraid just do it! I may be overestimating your level of knowledge I don't know for sure, but you speak as if you have this experience and so forth.

Maybe that is the first starting point. What exactly is your experience level? I ask not to bash, but to see where you can start. Don't puff it up but what is your actual experience with hypnotizing people in a stage type setting? (The dirty little secret is that this is the EASY part of the show and I could teach it to you in about 15 minutes if I took my time.) We don't know your actual experience level in this sort of thing so it is hard to discuss. Not being obnoxious, just trying to get a feel for what can be done to help.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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I got serious about hypnosis maybe 6-8 years ago. I've done many demonstrations with individuals and small groups (8-10 people) - but never what I would consider a "Stage hypnosis" show. So basically, I know what I'm doing in regards to hypnosis but I know enough to know that I have big gaps in the area of creating a quality stage hypnosis show where members of the committee will be interacting with each other - rather than showing specific phenomena or building hypnotic trance into other demonstrations.

My focus has always been smaller shows. Now I'm looking at larger shows. I am confident enough that I could pull off a stage show if by some bizarre turn of events I had to do it, but I'd rather get a boost up the ladder so to speak. In other words, while I think I could pull it off with my current skill set, I don't think it would be a quality product and I'd prefer to offer the best quality I can for the person buying the ticket or booking me.

But I am also looking for guidance on the 'back end' of things. I can write shows and perform them, no problem. But the business side of things has always been problematic for me, so I'm waving the flag and admitting I need help there.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Dannydoyle
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I think the business end of it is where the "courses" fall down horribly. I mean there are dozens of them out there with literally thousands of people who have taken them in the past decade or so and how many full time professional hypnotists are working today? Take away the guys who only do it for Grad nights, and the guys who do it because mentalism wasn't working out. How many do it and make a living at it full time? 20? Maybe 50? Certainly under 100 right?

My point is that WAY less than 10% of the people who take the courses manage to be able to do what they "train" to do. I am going to doubt that the best way to learn the "back end" of things is from "training" as you say. This is sort of the point I am trying to make as opposed to busting your chops.

You are not going to get a quality product from one of these courses most likely. What ends up helping with the quality of the product is stage time, flight hours so to speak. I mean it is simply the 10,000 hour rule. No way around it. You are going to have to put in the time being bad at what it is you choose to do, until such a time you end up being as good as you want to be. The ONLY way to get that done is to get on stage and do it. If you can write the shows and perform them as stated (Which is the HARD part.) then you should go do so. Gladwell explains that reaching the 10,000-Hour Rule, which he considers the key to success in any field, is simply a matter of practicing a specific task that can be accomplished with 20 hours of work a week for 10 years. So it is going to take time, and when you start, no matter HOW LONG you wait, that time does not change. The longer you wait the longer it will be before you are proficient.

Instead of looking for this fictitious quality of "best you can provide" maybe you should just be looking for stage time? Literally any place you can find it. Stage time. You will never be able to provide that quality of a show at the start of the process no matter how much you "train". So you should write the show, (Which is the easy part for you apparently.) book the show, and go out and DO the show. Once you have done THAT a LOT you will be at the quality of the show that your looking to provide. It is not a formula that has a short cut, no matter what anyone says.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Feb 19, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
You are not going to get a quality product from one of these courses most likely. What ends up helping with the quality of the product is stage time, flight hours so to speak. I mean it is simply the 10,000 hour rule. No way around it. You are going to have to put in the time being bad at what it is you choose to do, until such a time you end up being as good as you want to be. The ONLY way to get that done is to get on stage and do it.


While this is truly good sound advice, it is also only good in theory, as the problem with this is performers hear this and start to focus on this belief while missing some other very important aspects.

The key to real, true success in live entertainment is learning and doing things in the right sequential order (most don't, they skip crucial steps and knowledge in an attempt just to get to the good stuff (the performance). So the problem with people accepting this advice is they will almost always be doing the wrong things repeatedly because they were never properly educated or learned the things they needed to FIRST. This information (the 10,000 Rule) is golden ONCE THEY ARE TRULY EDUCATED AND READY TO DO SO. So many just take where they are and believe "okay I just need to put in my 10,000 hours." But what they are doing is actually putting in 10,000 hours learning, doing and cementing in the incorrect or wrong thing, because they missed the proper and so important foundational things FIRST.

So I agree with the 10,00 hours/show concept but ONLY AFTER it is clear that they are doing the right thing, the right way, in the right order. Once they are executing, most, unfortunately, stop learning and educating themselves and their fall back is "I was told just to get stage time and put in 10,000 hours." They hear what they want to hear, in their own interpreted context.

The second most important thing is performance dynamics. Rarely is this ever discussed, covered or trained. It is, in almost all performance situations, the difference between success and failure, a great performance and a poor performance.

Execution is important but only after being properly knowledgable and educated. Otherwise, most spend hours, months, years and decades cementing in bad habits in improper or incorrect beliefs, perceptions, and efforts.

I also agree with the actual amount of true, real stage hypnotists. I think it is actually closer to 50 myelf, Danny is being generous.
Dannydoyle
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But he said he already could perform the show and write the show and all that stuff. THAT being the case then all there is to do is get out and do it.

I am being a bit facetious in this in this as I have never ONCE seen a person who had this belief be correct. It is generally the sign of a person who has been making the same mistake over and over.

Or perhaps in the little bubble they live in they have all this down but when it comes to wider appeal they are just lost. But IF these things are true and he can do all these things then it is just a matter of getting out and doing it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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