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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Drills for intermediate-advanced mem deck training? (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Silversleights04
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Greetings all!

I've spent a couple of months learning and memorizing the Redford stack from Temporarily Out of Order using the Trustman's loci method. I'm able to recall the position of any card or the card at a given position within about 12-18 seconds, but that's a bit slower than I'd like. Honestly, I also still struggle with some of the mental calculations for cuts, pair dealing, and ACAAN as well.

Now that I've at least got a basic foundation of memory built, I was wondering what were some of y'alls favorite/best drills to help with your mem deck proficiency? I already use numbers from the surrounding environment as a basic drill, but I'm afraid my speed isn't improving. How did you drill the order in to make your mem deck second nature? Were there any tips or tricks that especially helped you with mental calculations? ACAAN in particular? Was there any resource that gave you some great advice or helped you go from beginner to intermediate-advanced mem deck work. As I mentioned, I do struggle a bit with math, but not with my memory thankfully, so any advice is appreciated.

PS: I'm sure there are some posts or replies about it within the topics here, but my searches yielded limited results. I apologize if this seems like a simple or repeat question Smile
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Watchmaker
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You need to mix it up as much as possible to get it into your long term memory. I see you mention the position of any card, and what card is at a position. It's important to know both, even though they seem to be the same.

Also, avoid just going through the order as the only means of learning. So for example, you might say, what are the positions of all the aces? Give the position numbers from lowest to highest. Highest to lowest. Spades, Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds. Do that for all the cards.

How many cards are between two random cards? Pick a card and immediately name the card 26 cards away. Stuff like that. Mix it up so much that you don't have time to say to yourself, "what card is at that number?" That number should be a card in your mind. There is nothing to figure out.

Good luck.

Phil
Silversleights04
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Quote:
On Apr 8, 2020, Watchmaker wrote:
You need to mix it up as much as possible to get it into your long term memory. I see you mention the position of any card, and what card is at a position. It's important to know both, even though they seem to be the same.

Also, avoid just going through the order as the only means of learning. So for example, you might say, what are the positions of all the aces? Give the position numbers from lowest to highest. Highest to lowest. Spades, Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds. Do that for all the cards.

How many cards are between two random cards? Pick a card and immediately name the card 26 cards away. Stuff like that. Mix it up so much that you don't have time to say to yourself, "what card is at that number?" That number should be a card in your mind. There is nothing to figure out.

Good luck.

Phil


Solid advice Phil, thanks! That's exactly the type of drilling I'm interested in. I've just made up some flashcards with some drill questions as well to throw into the pile, so we'll see if that helps with the immediacy of recall. Any tips on practicing ACAAN calculations?

-Marco-
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mlippo
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Quote:
On Apr 8, 2020, Silversleights04 wrote:
Greetings all!

[...] I'm able to recall the position of any card or the card at a given position within about 12-18 seconds [...]


In my opinion before trying any advanced drill, which is a good thing but not indispensable to do some good memdeck work (I know because I do not apply many advanced skills to my work), you need to be able to recall position/number in ONE second, not longer than that!

There are apps for smartphones (even free ones) but what I used to memorise Mnemonica was having a pack of old red-backed cards, both at home and at work, with each card bearing its position number written with a thick Sharpie on the backs and went over and over that for three months!

Mind you I didn't use any memory system. Just rote memorisation.

Just my advice.

Mark
Chris K
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Generally agreed with mlippo.

1-2 seconds should be the absolute most time.
Watchmaker
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I totally agree with Mark and Chris. There comes a point when it just clicks and you don't think about converting a position to a card or visa-versa. In your brain it's the same thing. Someone mentions a card, you think a number. When you get there then you really aren't converting anymore. There is no time lapse, it's instant.

In 12 to 18 seconds you should be able to clock a deck! In that case there is stress involved because you are doing math in your head very quickly and need to be correct on one quick run through. Memorizing a deck is stress free because it will always be the same, today and in ten years.
Silversleights04
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Yes, I think you're all making a valid point on the speed of recall and I totally agree, it was my main focus and concern. I kept practicing, but I found that my speed of recall was plateauing. So, I've made some good flashcards and spent the past 2 days drilling them like I'm working for Exxon and managed to only whittle it down to 8-ish seconds for recall.

But now I'm afraid that my original method of memorization may be what's hindered me here. The Trustman's Loci method was great for the initial foundation for memorization, but what it offers in ease of learning, it lacks in the speed of recall. I'm still always either doing simple math and THEN recalling an image and the position of something in that image, or I'm recalling an image and an object's place in it and THEN doing the simple math. Too many steps.

After the feedback from y'all, I think I need to re-learn the stack with just good old rote learning and not rely on the loci method. Start from scratch and try to brute force it, so to speak. I also discovered the Mnemonicosis app on android, that has a ton of features for practice on the go. Thanks for all the help fellas!
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Harry Lorayne
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Why in the world bother with THE PAGE-A-MINUTE MEMORY BOOK, HOW TO DEVELOP A SUPER-POWER MEMORY, THE MEMORY BOOK, AGELESS MEMORY, and so on? Might as well listen to advice about just using rote memory. (That gave me the laugh of the day - talk about "worst" advice.) Yeah, can my books be of any help? The about 50 million people who have purchased them over the decades just wasted their money/time. They're in 11 languages (that I know of). Two of those mentioned about were on best-seller lists, including the NY Times (THE MEMORY BOOK for about 52 weeks).

C,mon, start reading the good stuff!!!!
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Silversleights04
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Hey Harry! I had a feeling in my gut that if we said "memorization" enough times on this forum that we'd summon you like Beetlejuice, ha!

Of course, we could never forget about you, oh Maestro of Memory!

I've had my eye on your memory books for a couple of months, to be honest, but I'm currently not able to spend on my passion projects at the moment. Though admittedly $10 for The Memory Book is a steal as far as I'm concerned, I'll see if I can rub a few coins together and make a miser's dream come true.

I hear your peg system is one of the best ways to do it for mnemonic/visual learners like myself. Patrick offers the briefest of overviews of his version of the peg system for his stack in Temporarily Out of Order, he also recommended your book in the same section for more clarity.

I promise that it's at the top of my book buying list as soon as the world takes its foot off my wallet! I won't forget to remember it, and I'll try to remember not to forget it! Smile
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Harry Lorayne
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You sure as heck won't get any of my books from me for $10.00. Be careful, when the world takes its foot off your oh-so-thin wallet, not to deal with rip-offs or let rip-offs deal with you.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Silversleights04
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Sound advice my friend and my mistake, it's about $13 from the oppressors Here:
https://www.amazon.com/Memory-Book-Class......4&sr=8-9

BUT I absolutely refuse to give them a single red cent of my hard-earned money anymore. I won't add to their coffers.

I'd rather buy it from your store and support you directly, but the full cost makes it a bit difficult at the moment. I'll surely come back to it, Thanks Harry!
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Silversleights04
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Not sure where I got $10 from, maybe at Half-Price Books... I can't REMEMBER, apparently I need this book Smile
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Apr 8, 2020, Silversleights04 wrote:
Greetings all!

I've spent a couple of months learning and memorizing the Redford stack from Temporarily Out of Order using the Trustman's loci method. I'm able to recall the position of any card or the card at a given position within about 12-18 seconds, but that's a bit slower than I'd like. Honestly, I also still struggle with some of the mental calculations for cuts, pair dealing, and ACAAN as well.

Now that I've at least got a basic foundation of memory built, I was wondering what were some of y'alls favorite/best drills to help with your mem deck proficiency? I already use numbers from the surrounding environment as a basic drill, but I'm afraid my speed isn't improving. How did you drill the order in to make your mem deck second nature? Were there any tips or tricks that especially helped you with mental calculations? ACAAN in particular? Was there any resource that gave you some great advice or helped you go from beginner to intermediate-advanced mem deck work. As I mentioned, I do struggle a bit with math, but not with my memory thankfully, so any advice is appreciated.

PS: I'm sure there are some posts or replies about it within the topics here, but my searches yielded limited results. I apologize if this seems like a simple or repeat question Smile

The Memory Book by Harry Lorayne. That is all.
Bobby Forbes
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2020, Silversleights04 wrote:
Not sure where I got $10 from, maybe at Half-Price Books... I can't REMEMBER, apparently I need this book Smile



Here it is for $3.99 used. Go grab it up man. It's a great book and a fun read https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-memory......=1288731
Fredzik
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If you want to develop mastering intuitively your stack, I strongly recommend the Stack Master App (available both
for Android and Iphone). As I already wrote in anoter thread,it is by far the best app you can think about:
- to learn your favourite stack
- to go beyond standard rank/card association in a very recreational way.
The app is really eye-candy, have many many different games to master your stack instinctively:
memory games, maths games, find 4 of kind, mates, Green Angle Separation etc etc ...
It also integrates full routines training like ACAAN (Asi Wind) , Mnemonicosis (Tamariz) ,
The core (Pit Hartling), Past Present Future (Aronson), Pi (Vincent Hedan book test).
There are many predefined "standard" stacks (Tamariz, Aronson, Redford, Aragon ... among others).
Jocko
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I'm using the peg system to memorize Mneumonica. Do any of you have a list of the way that you associate the card word with the number word?
Silversleights04
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So, the method that worked best for me, in the end, was actually a combination of things. The Trustman's loci method added extra steps to the mental process, especially when recalling neighboring cards. So, I created a simple mnemonic narrative with a photographic deck as a reference tool to help with the mental imagery. I ultimately found this method the most helpful for quickly recalling a sequence of cards (which was a big point of weakness for me in terms of speed of recall). I also used Sal Piacente's teaching of the Major System from his Penguin Lecture to help with the position association by adding linking images to my mental narrative. I know everyone says H.L., but I didn't want to endorse him anymore after seeing and experiencing his abrasively aggressive sales pitches on here. I also still play with the apps regularly for fun and do drills based on deposit amounts at work.

It's been a fantastic experience and I legitimately feel like I've gained a powerful tool because of it. The current recall time is 3 seconds or less, which I consider to be a drastic improvement. And the best part is, I can finally perform Temporarily Out of Order and Asi Wind's ACAAN, and I didn't even need a Might Morphing Magic Ranger stack watch Smile. Thanks to everyone for their assistance and guidance! Special thanks to Patrick Redford and Sal Piacente!
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RobertApodaca
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There's a Stackview tool you can use in the browser for Aronson stack.

Years ago, someone on this site shared a link to a small piece of software that had the most popular mem stacks available to choose and you could quick yourself in variety of manners.

Does anyone remember this program? This was about 10 years ago. It was called "Stack " something.
Chris K
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This is my favorite, by far. Not as user friendly to start but so much power: http://www.wynapse.com/random/randomcards.html
Francois Lagrange
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There's this excellent free standalone android app. that you can download from here -> MemDeckPro

It has numerous settings, it's fast, contains a lot of stacks and you can create your own.
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