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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » The effect of exposure (19 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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funsway
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old things in new ways - new things in old ways
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As always, Whit, your experienced wisdom is cause for thought.

"Magic will survive. There will always be those who find the joy in it and a way to share it.
The rest is all preening and posing and foolishness."

My concern is what the observer expects of magic today as opposed to yesteryear, and of a stranger claiming to be able to demonstrate inexplicable phenomena.
It is not just that secrets and methods have been exposed on Youtube and "for sale anywhere." The entire concept of my offering a "real experience of magic" is corrupted.

Yes, some individuals may understand and appreciate magic as art and charm beyond "gotcha" and skill demonstration,
but as soon as they are in a group they become weird and distracted by impressing peers - "preening and posing and foolishness."

Good magic has a kind of informational intimacy that must be respected to be enjoyed. With many people today confusing "peer or herd approval" with intimacy,
thet chances are great that in any audience some individual will use deliberate exposure, posturing or even shaming to "gain points" to enhance their phantom presence.

Of course, many unpracticed performers of the "buy today, perform tomorrow" bent fuel this silliness by exposing both method and the validity of being a magicina
through bumbling, repeat performance on demand, or effects inappropriate to setting or audience.

If the magician does not "find the joy in it," how can they expect that for an audience?

Doing tricks has become too cheap and easy. Performing magic effects takes practice and audience engagement skills - nether available as a download on the Internet.
Working towards any long-term memory of "must be magic" is something for which neither performer or audience seems inclined to work for - or understand.

the result is (for me) that I perform only very rarely and then only for those who can appreciate magic without some cry of "entertain me."
If I was trying to make a living off of "doing tricks" today I would learn balloon tying.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2021, funsway wrote:
As always, Whit, your experienced wisdom is cause for thought.

"Magic will survive. There will always be those who find the joy in it and a way to share it.
The rest is all preening and posing and foolishness."

My concern is what the observer expects of magic today as opposed to yesteryear, and of a stranger claiming to be able to demonstrate inexplicable phenomena.
It is not just that secrets and methods have been exposed on Youtube and "for sale anywhere." The entire concept of my offering a "real experience of magic" is corrupted.

Yes, some individuals may understand and appreciate magic as art and charm beyond "gotcha" and skill demonstration,
but as soon as they are in a group they become weird and distracted by impressing peers - "preening and posing and foolishness."

Good magic has a kind of informational intimacy that must be respected to be enjoyed. With many people today confusing "peer or herd approval" with intimacy,
thet chances are great that in any audience some individual will use deliberate exposure, posturing or even shaming to "gain points" to enhance their phantom presence.

Of course, many unpracticed performers of the "buy today, perform tomorrow" bent fuel this silliness by exposing both method and the validity of being a magicina
through bumbling, repeat performance on demand, or effects inappropriate to setting or audience.

If the magician does not "find the joy in it," how can they expect that for an audience?

Doing tricks has become too cheap and easy. Performing magic effects takes practice and audience engagement skills - nether available as a download on the Internet.
Working towards any long-term memory of "must be magic" is something for which neither performer or audience seems inclined to work for - or understand.

the result is (for me) that I perform only very rarely and then only for those who can appreciate magic without some cry of "entertain me."
If I was trying to make a living off of "doing tricks" today I would learn balloon tying.


My experience has been different. I have made a good living performing magic since I was young. I am 72, and still thoroughly enjoy my work, and my audiences are always fun. I have never seen the kinds of problems you describe with your audiences. I love the young people today, and think they are the best audiences I have ever had. I think the young magicians today are the best crop I have ever seen. The audience is not the source of joy, anyway. You are there to give them something. That something is the joy you find in magic.
Dannydoyle
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My experience has been similar to Pop.

But then again my only experience is performing for paying audiences. The difference in viewpoint may be due to this.

It in no way makes one right or one wrong or one better or one worse. It is just different experience is all.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lynnef
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Quote:
On Apr 27, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The 3 card Monte and shell game have been exposed more than any other effect in the name of education for marks. People RUN to get in line to play those games. Has exposure slowed that down? I should argue no.


Thanx Danny. As we know, magicians have frequently turned these cons into entertainment; and as Bob Sheets once described his pea and shell routine, "we're just playin' for love, folks." Lynn
Dannydoyle
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Even more so than that people have been exposing it to help the public. TV specials and the like for a VERY long time have been used as genuine attempts to curb the games.

I love Bob Sheets 3 shell game.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Pop Haydn
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The shell game isn't magic. The spectators think they "know" how it works. They just don't see how it can be done without them seeing it.
The story they will tell will be different from one they would tell of a magic trick. There is no illusion to be spoiled.
A magic trick is very different.
Dannydoyle
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But I was simply making a point about the affect of exposure is all.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
George Ledo
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Many of Copperfield's biggest tricks (for lack of a better word) have been exposed in print or on YouTube. Last I heard, he has not been forced to go away in disgrace. Just because some hee-haw looking for attention exposes a trick online or in print, doesn't mean someone else is going to care enough to look it up. Nowadays, it's probably mostly wannabes thinking that "knowing how" somehow makes them "a magician."
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
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Dannydoyle
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Camel cigarettes did it back in the 1930's.

https://www.wildabouthoudini.com/2013/03......html?m=1
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
George Ledo
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Thanks, Danny, that was a new one for me.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here"
MikeLarkin
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What a joke. People claiming that people exposing effects created by others matters naught! For one thing, it matters to the people who create the effects. Many people who actually create magic do not like to see it openly revealed on the internet, partially because it is something they came up with, and (I presume) partially because they will be robbed of potential sales of any products they put out.

There is also a cringeworthy element to magicians taking credit for magic they had no hand in creating, something Paul Harris himself discussed on his True Astonishments interview. He felt slightly sleazy getting all the credit after performing someone else's matrix routine, and I am sure it is a bit galling when he sees magicians getting all the credit for things he himself developed. You can argue there is an element of self-interest there, but there are actually lots of small ways you give respectful nods to the people from the past who we basically stand on the shoulders of.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Jun 21, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
What a joke. People claiming that people exposing effects created by others matters naught! For one thing, it matters to the people who create the effects. Many people who actually create magic do not like to see it openly revealed on the internet, partially because it is something they came up with, and (I presume) partially because they will be robbed of potential sales of any products they put out.

There is also a cringeworthy element to magicians taking credit for magic they had no hand in creating, something Paul Harris himself discussed on his True Astonishments interview. He felt slightly sleazy getting all the credit after performing someone else's matrix routine, and I am sure it is a bit galling when he sees magicians getting all the credit for things he himself developed. You can argue there is an element of self-interest there, but there are actually lots of small ways you give respectful nods to the people from the past who we basically stand on the shoulders of.


What do you propose?
MikeLarkin
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I'm not proposing anything. But that doesn't mean it is fine for people to upload, say, the Professional Close-Up Of Michael Skinner, for example, onto YouTube.

I know the old argument that the Masked Magician didn't harm magic. There is an element of truth there, but back then you could not just watch that show whenever you liked, or search out specific effects. And was there not controversy over later seasons that started exposing more practical effects, whereas old episodes where showing quite impractical methods?

There is a balance between making magic open to people interested in the subject, and just having a free for all.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
I'm not proposing anything. But that doesn't mean it is fine for people to upload, say, the Professional Close-Up Of Michael Skinner, for example, onto YouTube.

I know the old argument that the Masked Magician didn't harm magic. There is an element of truth there, but back then you could not just watch that show whenever you liked, or search out specific effects. And was there not controversy over later seasons that started exposing more practical effects, whereas old episodes where showing quite impractical methods?

There is a balance between making magic open to people interested in the subject, and just having a free for all.


I think most everyone agrees that they would prefer there not be exposure, just accept it as a fact of life. So we consider what it means for our art and adjust.
tommy
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If we pretend it never happened, we can deny they ever exposed it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 21, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
What a joke. People claiming that people exposing effects created by others matters naught! For one thing, it matters to the people who create the effects. Many people who actually create magic do not like to see it openly revealed on the internet, partially because it is something they came up with, and (I presume) partially because they will be robbed of potential sales of any products they put out.

There is also a cringeworthy element to magicians taking credit for magic they had no hand in creating, something Paul Harris himself discussed on his True Astonishments interview. He felt slightly sleazy getting all the credit after performing someone else's matrix routine, and I am sure it is a bit galling when he sees magicians getting all the credit for things he himself developed. You can argue there is an element of self-interest there, but there are actually lots of small ways you give respectful nods to the people from the past who we basically stand on the shoulders of.


You are conflating theft with exposure. Do not do that.

It is entirely different and should be handled differently.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
George Ledo
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Quote:
On Jun 21, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
There is also a cringeworthy element to magicians taking credit for magic they had no hand in creating, something Paul Harris himself discussed on his True Astonishments interview. He felt slightly sleazy getting all the credit after performing someone else's matrix routine, and I am sure it is a bit galling when he sees magicians getting all the credit for things he himself developed. You can argue there is an element of self-interest there, but there are actually lots of small ways you give respectful nods to the people from the past who we basically stand on the shoulders of.

Are you suggesting that anyone who performs a trick for the general public give credit to the creator?

For instance, "I am now going to perform the levitating elephant created by Pach I. Derm?"
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

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Dannydoyle
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Yea a little impossible at best.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JonHackl
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Also unwise, since using the creator's and/or trick's name gives them something to google.
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
tommy
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Breaking the Third Wall is essentially when a character acknowledges directly or indirectly that he is playing a role, acting. I think giving credit during and the act would Break the Third Wall and spoil the spirit of the thing.

I do not know how but maybe there is a way of doing it afterwards: like a credit roll after a film.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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