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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3005 Posts 
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On Jul 1, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: LOL. Just asking you to prove your point, Tom. But maybe I should have been clearer: I was asking about magicians giving credit.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2960 Posts
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Live music performers may give credit to originators if so inclined- I like to and often do- but many do not and it seems to go without saying. Elvis did, I think, sometimes, and often not. Nor did he claim he wrote the songs. He did however perform them in a way no one else could, and if there's any collaboration between originator and performer, that's where it lies, and where the performer has a measure of originality.
The general public is obviously less informed about magic than music, and so may thus assume a performer is the creator of a piece. Theatre performers don't tend to cite credits along with their lines from the stage. As a theatre student I wasn't trained to do so. Front of House might. Performance rights need to be obtained for anything not original or in the public domain, true, but a paper program is the conventional medium for crediting a theatrical production. |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2960 Posts
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On Jun 25, 2021, tommy wrote: Fourth Wall. 
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On Jul 1, 2021, magicalaurie wrote: Sorry, the link should be: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music......-243747/ I think people lose ground in thinking everything is a competition. I think that's a hugely flawed concept we're brainwashed with from a very early age. And it steals peace and joy if we let it. Everything is connected and we all influence each other. Simple fact. Big picture. And really does go without saying, in my opinion, but nonetheless I'm glad to see more people speaking up about it.  |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20965 Posts
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And that is the EXACT point. Elvis never claimed to be a prolific song writer. He was not. He was an unmatched performer. He didn't give credit too much for the writer. He would have to do it on literally every song he did in most shows.
As a matter of fact did Elton John mention he had a collaboration going on with most of his stuff? Does Barry Manilow credit Bruce Johnston every time he sings "I Write the Songs"? In this case Barry Manilow is a prolific song writer in his own right! BUT the song, "I Write the Songs" was written by another for him. Yet when I saw him in Vegas he didn't really mention it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2EddwEVx54 This is an instance of Metallica doing Turn the Page. The show is specifically a tribute to those in the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. So it makes some sense to sort of mention that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5f-UdtOsXE Here they are in Quebec. NO mention of who wrote it. Matter of fact the only time I ever heard them mention it was at the special show. Here from about 36 00 to 41 40 Ricky Jay does "Everywhere and Nowhere" with the presentation of giving credit. The ENTIRE premise of the effect is built around giving a sort of history lesson. His "Cups and Balls" may be another example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtgUSUHnzLI&t=397s So again the idea that it "can't be done" or whatever I blanket stated was not correct. BUT it is FAR from the norm. And Laurie to be fair that is an example of Paul Simon taking credit for his own work more than Elvis giving him credit during performance. Tom was making a claim about in performance. I think you right about all influencing each other. But in a performance in which folks have paid lots of money to see do many of those in the crowd want to hear crediting, or more music?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2960 Posts
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I didn't say it was an example of Elvis giving Paul credit, and it wasn't intended as such. It was more an example of Paul giving Elvis credit, indeed.
 But sense his distress at seemingly having to compete with Elvis' performance. Flawed. One of my theatre instructors made sure to emphasize: There is no competition. THERE'S ONLY ONE OF YOU.
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3005 Posts
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Just for the heck of it, I pulled out copies of programs from the Blackstone Jr., Lance Burton, and Siegfried and Roy shows. As Laurie said, the credits, including illusion design and fabrication, coordination, consulting, thanks, and many other "magic" credits are at the back of the programs along with scenery, lighting, and costume design, music, choreography, and so forth. Where they should be: in the program. I don't have a clue what I did with my Copperfield program, but I suspect it's the same.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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KungFuMagic Regular user 167 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: The far stronger, and DIRECT precedent is in magic performance, where you are granted rights to perform. That's how you get the "magical blessing. So to speak ... as long as ya don't go saying ya made it yourself.
Nick Sasso
part-time Samurai conjurer |
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KungFuMagic Regular user 167 Posts
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If I may .... those musicians are paying royalties when they perform all those other artists songs. It is a slightly different reality, as we certainly aren't paying back in royalties. Similarities in industries go only as far as the differences.
Nick Sasso
part-time Samurai conjurer |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20965 Posts
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On Jul 1, 2021, KungFuMagic wrote: Laurie may know more than I do about this, but Elvis was the exact other way around. His crew wanted half the publishing on any song Elvis records. I guess that is what you get when your the KING!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9836 Posts
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I ask again about what is to be credited - creator, first published or the person who made it popular?
Even in music it is confused. Elvis is credited for "Love me Tender" that he said was "based on an old ballad." That ballad was "Aura Lee" and claimed to be written by W.W. Fosdick with lyrics by George Poulton because they published it in 1861. But, it was the creation of Steven Foster who performed in decades earlier. A magic sleight can suffer from the same problem. For me, the person who should be acknowledge, if at all, is the one who taught me the importance of the sleight, with appreciation of the psychology involved. In my writings I credit the published source so that the reader can do more in-depth study if desired. If known, I acknowledge the originator or influence too Since none of these apply to observers of a live performance, giving acknowledgement or credit is meaningless and potentially harmful. If the goal is a long term memory of "must be magic," then I certainly would not wish for any distracting thoughts about a sleight that "never happened" in their perspective. Credits for a secret move is the worst kind of exposure, i.e the fact that a sleights was involved. Besides, if spectators wants to research "how it was done, there is no reason for me to lessen their joy of discovery.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3653 Posts
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Unless they are created by Kurt Vonnegut, characters don't usually explain their sources. Magicians are characters--played by actors. Hamlet doesn't discuss Shakespeare with his audiences.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil’s Island 16443 Posts
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In The Railway Children, the entire cast breaks the fourth wall and perform a curtain call as the credits roll. The camera moves slowly along a railway track towards a train which is decked in flags, in front of which all of the cast are assembled, waving and cheering to the camera. At the start of the credit sequence, a voice can be heard shouting "Thank you, Mr Forbes" to acknowledge producer Bryan Forbes. At the end, Bobbie Waterbury (Jenny Agutter) holds up a small slate on which "The End" is written in chalk.
It is a form of exposure, although it hardly a secret it is an act, a play. I will say, that in our magic it is important that we expose the fact that it is a fictional act and not real. That is usually done through the absurdity of the patter which tells the audience it is fiction.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5904 Posts
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On Jul 2, 2021, Pop Haydn wrote: A noble and lofty goal, POP. Sadly the reality is 99% of those calling themselves “magicians” don’t have what it takes to be that actor. Instead they follow the easy advice of “be a version of yourself” which even that they dilute down to, “I’m just me, a guy who does some tricks.“ Unfortunately, such wonderful aspirations have little place in the reality of the situation. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9836 Posts
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If true, Tom, then there is even more reason for these 'semi-magicians' to avoid exposure thought credits or acknowledgement -
for they risk exposing themselves as frauds, or is that a reveal? For them, performing a trick is sorta like a Selfie -- proof that they are real and not a figment of Social Media folly. For a moment they are alive and having a non-vicarious experience. Last thing they would want is to credit anyone else. At best they achieve "magical" as "sorta like magic, but most likely puzzle, mayhem or skill demonstration. Why would any creator or 'first published' magician wish to be connected with that? If a 12 year old with five minutes of practice mangles one of my Sleights on YouTube, I don't want my name mentioned.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20965 Posts
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On Jul 2, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: You're doing EXACTLY what you said I was. It is not about if they are good at acting they matters. It is about crediting sitting the show.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3005 Posts
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On Jul 2, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: Hmmmm... So could that be why some of them feel the need to give credit to whoever created the trick?
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5904 Posts
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On Jul 2, 2021, George Ledo wrote: Exactly the opposite. Quote:
On Jul 2, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny, slow down. I was responding to Pop who brought up acting, not anything you posted. Obviously if they suck at acting, using a storytelling ploy like crediting a source to build interest will be beyond their skill set. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 20965 Posts
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On Jul 2, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: I'm just using your Greg Brady exact words standard is all and applying it to you the way you do to everyone else.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2603 Posts
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On Jul 2, 2021, Tom Cutts wrote: I agree with your 99% qualifier but as someone who got my Equity card at 13 and have acted professionally my entire life in everything from Sondheim to Mamet, I have the technical ability and requisite skill to play a “character” on stage. I simply choose not to most of the time. Yes, I have a Charlie Chaplin segment, a Mission: Impossible routine and a Pirate scene among others where I am specifically lifting the 4th wall to create a certain feel for those scenes in a full evening show as it expands the breadth of their experience. On the other hand, I never start a show with those but as myself as I want the audiences to connect with me, not a character. Yes, even when I’m “myself” as a personality and not a character on stage, there is a huge amount of acting involved in creating the illusion of spontaneity in something I have done for 40 years and other elements which require acting for certain misdirective elements. If you look at the most popular stars in the industry, they have achieved that status largely due to their personality and not the characters they might or might not have played. Yes, this is a choice. I know many “character acts” which are very successful. My choices are based on experience and a life long study of the entertainment industry as a whole… not my need to “dilute” anything.
Ray Pierce
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tommy Eternal Order Devil’s Island 16443 Posts
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An actor once played me and so I must be a character.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Posted: Jul 1, 2021 10:37 pm 
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