I'm just starting to learn the cups and balls after spending a solid 6 months on coin work. I thought the ball vanishes would be easier since I can already do a number of coin vanishes fairly well, IMHO. To my dismay, I'm finding that the balls are so light and they don't fall into place like the heavier (and flatter) coins. Right now the only things that look decent are shuttle passes, the french drop, classic palming and thumb clips.

Obviously I need practice. I know that, and I'm doing that.

Can anyone out there do a retention or a drop vanish with a ball and have it look as good as a coin?

Any tips on going from coins to balls?

One main difference with the coins and balls, is that the coins will flash due to their physical nature, therefore imprinting in a spectator's visual retention. so actually, it is not comparing apples to apples due to the dull colors of(non-metal) balls. but you probably already have a physical advantage in the maniuplations being that you have worked much with coins.

Jwilder, do you do both coins and cups and balls, and if so, which sleights do you find transfer the best from coins to balls?

It sounds like you are stuck on the diameter of the ball vs the flat more concealable nature of a coin. They are very much the same moves. Just really place the ball in your hand and then attempt to recreate the same visible movements without placing the ball in your hand.

Just be aware of your hand angles or tilt.

Have fun!

Use heavier balls.

Even though some sleights transfer comparing ball work to coin work is like comparing card work to coin work. Ever tried to back palm a coin? It is much more difficult to back palm a coin than it is a card. the same holds true with classic palming a coin, it is much easier and natural than "classic" palming a card. Keep working with it and you'll be as natural with the balls as you are with the coins. In Bobo's book he describes a coin vanish where the coin starts on the side of the left fist and is pushed into the fist with the right thumb. This coin vanish works well with small balls.

Dane

I do little coin work when performing. However, for me, a shuttle pass works well with both coins and balls. Also, working the c & b on the street, that is where you typically find the ultimate lay person. To them whether a ball vanishes via a french drop or false placement, the ball vanishes.
And I don't mean to disrespect the c & b trick by making that comment. There is nothing more I enjoy seeing than a well executed sleight (does that really make sense?). I worked for a long time learning the Vernon Wand spin (haven't I seen this topic in another thread recently?). As well I was working with more difficult sleights, and now that I know them, I am thankful and appreciative that I did learn them, but I don't use them.
Wow, somehow I feel like I didn't answer the question you asked me.
But actually in your first post on the topic, I'd say you are already very accurate in your own assessment. A thumb clip, shuttle pass, french drop, and classic palm are all easily transferable moves and methods.

Pete - I was thinking heavier balls as well. Any tips on where I can buy just the balls?

jwilder - I'm reading Ammar's Cups and Balls book and one of the magicians he interviews makes the point that, in his opinion, most magician's neglect the nuances of small ball vanishes. I guess what I'm trying to do is to use vanishes that are appropriate for balls. I'm also a juggler and throwing the ball seems like a natural move for someone to do with the ball. If I could get a decent drop vanish going, I would be happy. I think Pete's idea is key - I should work with heavier balls that will fall deeper into my palm as I fake the drop into the receiving hand.

Cloneman,
What cups are you using? I had actually considered the size of ball that you were using, but not the weight as Pete mentioned. How well will the balls nest in the cups?
Cellini lectured in my hometown and had some balls he'd made out of leather... they were excellent, and as I remember heavy. I wish I would have bought a set from him.

Leather balls, (monkey fist knots, not stitched "baseball" style) are very easy to make with a few feet of leather lacing, and can be made any weight you like. I tied mine around glass marbles. If you want heavier you can substitute steel ball bearings. Also, they don't roll off the table that easily either.

But don't discount the Mike Roger's baseballs. They have some heft and don't slip in the fingers as much. You can get these on Ammar's web site. I also believe that Gazzo sells various "larger" balls that are like the Mike Roger's baseballs and are reasonably priced. They are too large for the standard size cups, though.

Thomas,
Instead of working on a deceptive "looking" vanish I think you'll gain more if you focus on routining the vanishes so that the focus is on where the ball goes instead of where it is put. In otherwords, focus on justifying the hand to hand transfer and use a simple finger palm vanish and you'll have a really solid routine.

Avoid picking up a ball and tossing it back and forth between your hands so that you can "vanish" the ball and you'll be a hundred years ahead of most magicians. Learn to do a casual fingerpalm vanish with either hand and construct the routine so that you have a reason to tranfer the ball.

Throw in one or two actually placements where the ball is stolen out of the hand and you'll have a winnner.

I agree, maybe add fake put, fake take and the french drop works well with balls.

Fingerpalm is the only palming I do. most cup loading is from fingerpalm, even when you pick up a truly empty cup and a ball rolls out of it.

Cups and balls should move fast and have simple logical moves. The layperson is about to have their sense of reality utterly destroyed. I'll bet that after the performance if someone asked what did you see. most laypersons would not include the vanish in there description, this is because you did not tell them that you were doing a fake transfer and palming the ball, they saw you pick up the ball, put into the other hand and then put it where you told them (very logical).

Hope this helps.....



I have a set of Mike Rodgers mini base balls, they are little heaver then the cork/knit balls. If you want ever heaver balls try computer mouse balls.

Got my mini baseballs from Michael Ammars web site.

Maniac

You would have to do something about the "talking" if you use computer mouse balls.

Howard

Mouse balls are quit heavy for their size. So, a knit or leather cover should do the job. Some mouse balls are 5/8" to 3/4" and with padding and cover would be maybe 7/8" to 1". I beleave that most standard issue balls that come with the cups are 1", could be wrong.

If you are serious about heaver balls, this would be a one time effort. And not to expensive.

Cloneman,
here is a clip of the vanish I came up with. If you like it I'll share it with you.


http://webpages.charter.net/rcramin/homepage1.htm

Ronnie

You should all check out Mars's vanish. It's excellent.

Mars,
Nice vanish!

That's a "Take" vanish which a while back I posted elsewhere here on the Café, if anyone thought a "Take looked more natrual then a "Put" type vanish.

Mouse balls are covered with rubber (or something similar) so they don't talk very much at all. They are also a convenient size. Some really nice Monkey's Fist balls are available from Jim Riser's web site http://www.jamesriser.com .

Mike Rogers baseballs are getting harder to come by, but Auke Van Dokkum makes some excellent ones http://www.cupsandballs.nl . Also, excellent mini-baseballs are available from Jedinat http://www.jedinat-zaubershop.de .

I just got a copy of an excellent video that will show you everything you need to know about cups and balls "transfers." That is the Stevens Video Teach-in with Charlie Miller, Johnny Thompson, Johnny Paul, Mike Rogers and Michael Ammar. Mike Rogers has a slightly different take on the Silent Mora wand spin.

Pete Biro has been pushing this video for months now. He is right. It is definitely worth having.

Fake transfers are really about the best. They are actually mentioned in Hocus Pocus Junior.

Yes, there are TWO retention pass vanishes that work just fine with balls for the cups routine.

One is Mickey's and is not in print.

The other... you can find in Apocalypse if you go looking. And yes both of these are standard 'put' moves.

The move of 'mars' is quite good and I suggest folks take a look at the clip on his site for inspiration. I used to do something VERY similar with a golf ball sized ball in context of the Ramsay cups routine. There is a coin version of that vanish as well. It is quite impressive to get a 'burn' when doing a take vanish. Bravo to both of those guys.