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tommy
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The CIA was the brainchild of Reinhard Gehlen and John J. McCloy, you know that fella who sat in Hitlers box with all top Nazis at the Munich Olympics, who was made the boss of West Germany after the war, who freed a load Nazi war criminals so they could join the Gehlen organisation and who appointed Gehlen as head of the German intelligence service, despite the fact that Gehlen was a wanted war criminal, you know that John J. McCloy, who designed the Pentagon and so on, he was on the Warren Commission as well.

He did a great deal of work for corporations in Nazi Germany and advised the major German chemical combine I. G. Farben and so would you trust him with your cat?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Feeling a need to assign blame in proportion to how much a thing negatively affects social values is understandable. Vague language, stories about "they went that-a-way", and presuming others will chase at shadows are different matters. If such things save you from despairing about tomorrow; or feeling that you're hearing a tale told by an idiot - offering little in the way of explanation beyond disconnected details, so be it.

Consider a market in attention. The story sells books, gets movies made, and gets free advertising.

*So, is there conspiracy acting to prevent us from looking for the teapot? Same folks who keep the test results about frogs in hot water classified? Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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Vague language indeed. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Sep 13, 2020, tommy wrote:
The CIA was the brainchild of Reinhard Gehlen and John J. McCloy, you know that fella who sat in Hitlers box with all top Nazis at the Munich Olympics...


The history of the CIA goes well beyond two people "cookin' up a good ol' fashion plot" against the US. The establishment of any agency is the product of hard work by thousands of dedicated people working together. But of course that doesn't sell books, does it.

This is exactly why conspiracy theories gain traction. Because it makes us feel better to think that every bad thing that happens in the world is due to bad actors making shady deals in back rooms, even when there is insufficient evidence on which to base such a claim.
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landmark
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Quote:
...bad actors making shady deals in back rooms...


Look up the history of the CIA. Then you might have a better grasp of why people gravitate towards conspiracy theories.
tommy
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Reinhard Gehlen is not two people. That is what happens you happen to partly redact quotes. The declassified Gehlen file is an interesting document.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
...bad actors making shady deals in back rooms...


Look up the history of the CIA. Then you might have a better grasp of why people gravitate towards conspiracy theories.


The fact (Yes fact.) that this and many government agencies have a spotty history and a casual relationship with the truth does not however prove the conspiracies exist. It shows why people gravitate toward them.

Also it never ceases to amaze me that you constantly point out how bad version government agencies and actions are, yet you want to give them unlimited power and scope.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, landmark wrote:

Look up the history of the CIA. Then you might have a better grasp of why people gravitate towards conspiracy theories.


The underlying implication is that anyone that rejects assertions without evidence doesn't "really understand what's going on here." I reject that implication as the by-product of minds that are attempting to make sense of the world in the only way they know how.
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Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, landmark wrote:

Look up the history of the CIA. Then you might have a better grasp of why people gravitate towards conspiracy theories.


The fact (Yes fact.) that this and many government agencies have a spotty history and a casual relationship with the truth does not however prove the conspiracies exist. It shows why people gravitate toward them...


Good point. Of course all our intelligence communities have had successes and failures. Since we're only focusing on the CIA we can point to things like the assassination plots and even large scale actions like MK Ultra. You know why I believe these bad things happened? Because there is sufficient evidence of their existence to warrant belief. At the risk of repeating Danny, the fact that bad things happen does not mean every evidence-less assertion is true. It just provides ammo for any conspiracy hack to forward yet another unfalsifiable theory.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, Steven Keyl wrote:
...there is sufficient evidence of their existence to warrant belief. At the risk of repeating Danny, the fact that bad things happen does not mean every evidence-less assertion is true. It just provides ammo for any conspiracy hack to forward yet another unfalsifiable theory.
There is evidence of TLA fan fiction, a conspiracy community, and some confused thinking about choosing safety over freedom.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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The intelligence services have a spotty history is putting it a bit mildly isn’t it? You must be out for a laugh if you think our intelligence services do not conspire to assassinate leaders and engineer coup d'états. The Reinhard Gehlen and Allen Dulles duo engineered the 1953 Iranian the coup d'état. They have a lot form as we say.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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That spottiness (foreground versus background) was pondered in Miracleman issue 21 (spy story).

Service with a smile, a long trail of deniable tales.

In the words of our animated Bart: "I-didn't-do-it".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, tommy wrote:
The intelligence services have a spotty history is putting it a bit mildly isn’t it? You must be out for a laugh if you think our intelligence services do not conspire to assassinate leaders and engineer coup d'états. The Reinhard Gehlen and Allen Dulles duo engineered the 1953 Iranian the coup d'état. They have a lot form as we say.

I never said 5hey didn't conspire to kill leaders. I know for a fact they do.

I'll tell you this. The world is far more complicated than most believe. Judging them right or wrong on what little knowledge we have is a dangerous game.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2020, tommy wrote:
The intelligence services have a spotty history is putting it a bit mildly isn’t it? You must be out for a laugh if you think our intelligence services do not conspire to assassinate leaders and engineer coup d'états. The Reinhard Gehlen and Allen Dulles duo engineered the 1953 Iranian the coup d'état. They have a lot form as we say.

I never said 5hey didn't conspire to kill leaders. I know for a fact they do.

I'll tell you this. The world is far more complicated than most believe. Judging them right or wrong on what little knowledge we have is a dangerous game.


This should be the subtitle of this thread.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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landmark
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The fact (Yes fact.) that this and many government agencies have a spotty history and a casual relationship with the truth does not however prove the conspiracies exist. It shows why people gravitate toward them.


That's exactly right. Because people who know the history are aware it's a reasonable possibility. But indeed, not proof at all.

Quote:
Also it never ceases to amaze me that you constantly point out how bad version government agencies and actions are, yet you want to give them unlimited power and scope.


Exactly wrong. I've been defending Assange, Manning, and Snowden for years on these boards for their heroic actions uncovering agency surveillance abuse, much of the time to crickets here, or "Oh-they-didn't-go-through-the-right-channels"-ism. And it's not me who's been defending the biggest most powerful, most coercive arm of the government--the US military.

That's the problem with some conservatives: they get all excited about some stupid masks and the size of Slurppee sodas, or if the populace gets medical care and housing, but are silent when the real abuses occur. It's just a totally incoherent politics unless you finally realize that it has nothing to do with actual fear of government but everything to do with preserving and increasing elite wealth and power.
landmark
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Quote:
Since we're only focusing on the CIA we can point to things like the assassination plots and even large scale actions like MK Ultra. You know why I believe these bad things happened? Because there is sufficient evidence of their existence to warrant belief.


Steven, I usually find your posts understandable even if I don't agree; but I confess I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Could you re-phrase that?
tommy
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He is saying he believes whatever the government tells him enen when they tell him opposte things.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Steven Keyl
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Jack, I only meant that in terms of abuses and overreaches, I would only cite CIA examples, as opposed to NSA, NGA, NRO, etc. as the CIA is the agency most familiar to people interested in this kind of thing.
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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
landmark
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Got you. Thanks.

I've often thought that the most important thing to come out of the whole Watergate escapade was catching Nixon's guys on tape talking about "the modified limited hangout."

"PRESIDENT: You think, you think we want to, want to go this route now? And the — let it hang out, so to speak?
DEAN: Well, it's, it isn't really that —
HALDEMAN: It's a limited hang out.
DEAN: It's a limited hang out.
EHRLICHMAN: It's a modified limited hang out."

So my basic premise is that what one knows about any of these agencies--if you've heard of them at all, as you point out--is a modified limited hangout when they're caught. The reality is almost always worse.

So James Clapper can lie through his teeth to Congress (evidently that now gets you a spot on cable tv as a national security analyst rather than five years in prison for perjury) and lie about everything else. Remember "it's just the metadata." Uh, no, it's not just the metadata. And even then, most people had no idea about what could be inferred from "just the metadata" when collected in bulk, and connected in bulk.

Anyway, my Conspiracy Theory theory (!) is that the rise in conspiracy theories, irrational as some of them may be, is not in itself an irrational response. It's a direct result of the public's awareness that they are being lied to every single day by the most powerful in society about very important matters. The secret intelligence agencies have eroded trust in any sense of democracy and a truly informed public.
Dannydoyle
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On Sep 13, 2020, tommy wrote:
Anybody who does not consider Oswald innocent, including you and the Warren Commission, is throwing out the presumption of innocence because he was never proven guilty. The Taliban offered to hand over Osama bin Laden if evidence was produced against him but US the government said we do not negotiate with terrorists and instead went to war. Do you or have you ever considered Osama bin Laden innocent? The us government sets its self up as judge and jury, makes a hit list and sends out hit men to murder people in cold blood and then the people run around shouting USA. USA and you have the temerity to ask who is throwing out the presumption of innocence? All you have with these commissions and reports are theories and not very good ones neither.


Nice trolling but absolutely wrong. The presumption of innocence is simply a GOVERNMENT requirement. NOT one the citizens must abide by. Oswald never got his day in court, because he simply was killed by another person. The presumption still existed, it was not thrown out.

The investigation was to see if further people needed to be rounded up and tried.

Bin Laden was NOT a case for US courts. It was a war crimes dealio which has much different rules of engagement now doesn't it? So you are comparing apples and hand grenades. But you know this already.

Again nice try, but swing and a miss.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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