The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Conspiracy Theories » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..12~13~14~15~16~17~18 [Next]
R.S.
View Profile
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
175 Posts

Profile of R.S.
Quote:
OK, are we talking about pedophilia or the circumstances of Epstein’s death? For the record, I am strongly opposed to pedophilia. And I agree that there is ***ing evidence against Epstein


I said "damming" evidence for those wondering (I can't even spell it correctly here).

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
1KJ
View Profile
Inner circle
Warning: We will run out of new tricks in
3988 Posts

Profile of 1KJ
Ron,

I'm sorry, there is no defense for the destruction of the evidence on the JFK limo. That "investigation" you are referring to didn't even produce photos or video of the vehicle. There was no NEED to "rebuild" that vehicle. It doesn't really matter if anyone used it or not after that. I have read several accounts of how LBJ refused to ever ride in that limo. The rebuilding of the limo was a clear coverup of evidence that could have shed a lot of light on many things, including perhaps more information on how many shots were fired that day.

We could go on and on about evidence and the handling of things. I think it is FAR more destructive for people to PUNCH DOWN at people who question how things are handled. We can quibble over whether they are doing it exactly the way they should, but that would be a mistake.

The bottom line is that most of the events that people question were devastating to humanity and justice. For example, millions of people in the middle east have been killed in wars like the hoax war for weapons of mass destruction that never existed, and instead of individuals responsible for that hoax being brought to justice, the next Administration, Obama/Biden expanded the war from two countries to seven countries, killed a million more people, and we actually ran out of bombs!

Yet, in spite of that, people opt to PUNCH DOWN on lowly people who question these actions.

DESPICABLE.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

Adios, I'm checking out to get back to more entertaining discussions about magic.

KJ
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20836 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
A clear cover up? What experience do you have in investigation of any sort?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16339 Posts

Profile of tommy
All roads lead to Rome. So, if one is interested in the sexual predilections of the men and women up the on the hill, all one needs to do is watch the movie Caligula.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
View Profile
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
175 Posts

Profile of R.S.
Quote:
On Oct 23, 2020, 1KJ wrote:
Ron,

I'm sorry, there is no defense for the destruction of the evidence on the JFK limo. That "investigation" you are referring to didn't even produce photos or video of the vehicle. There was no NEED to "rebuild" that vehicle. It doesn't really matter if anyone used it or not after that. I have read several accounts of how LBJ refused to ever ride in that limo. The rebuilding of the limo was a clear coverup of evidence that could have shed a lot of light on many things, including perhaps more information on how many shots were fired that day.


What evidence on the limo got destroyed, and how do you know that? And even if there was evidence that was ultimately “destroyed” it doesn’t mean the evidence wasn’t first taken into account during the investigation.

And yes, the investigation did produce photos:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-......ory.html

Graphic J.F.K. Assassination Car Photos, Records Released

“The documents also feature numerous photos of a crack on the inside of the limousine’s windshield, a piece of evidence investigators used to help conclude that Kennedy had been killed by bullets fired from the rear.”


The rebuilding of the limo is simply common sense. Obviously, you’d want to make it more secure going forward.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collections......dy-limo/

“Following the assassination of President Kennedy, a committee was formed (originally comprised of thirty people) of six people representing the Secret Service, Army Materials Research Center, Hess & Eisenhardt and Pittsburgh Plate Glass Company. The White House approved a plan for a revamp of the X-100 around December 12, 1963. Work was completed May 1, 1964 and extensive testing was performed in Cincinnati, Ohio and Dearborn, Michigan before the car was delivered to the White House in June. Costs have been estimated to exceed $500,000 and were shared by Ford Motor Company, some Ford suppliers and the federal government.
Basic elements of the revamp included:

•Complete re-armoring of rear passenger compartment
•Addition of permanent non-removable top ("greenhouse") to accommodate transparent armor
•Replacement of engine with hand-built, high compression unit, providing approximately 17 percent more power
•Addition of second air conditioning unit in trunk
•Addition of certain electronic communication devices
•Reinforcement of some mechanical and structural components, e.g. front wheel spindles and door hinges, to accommodate additional weight
•Complete re-trimming of rear compartment, eliminating damage resulting from the assassination
•New paint treatment, "regal Presidential Blue Metallic with silver metallic flakes that glitter under bright lights and sunshine" (May 1, 1964 report by Willard C. Hess of Hess & Eisenhardt)”


And yes, LBJ did (albeit reluctantly) ride in it again.


Quote:
We could go on and on about evidence and the handling of things. I think it is FAR more destructive for people to PUNCH DOWN at people who question how things are handled. We can quibble over whether they are doing it exactly the way they should, but that would be a mistake.


It’s one thing to question how things are handled, but it’s a whole other thing to make baseless and counterproductive assertions. Gap-filling is tempting, but it’s often not justified. Occam’s razor is a good guiding principle. And when there are no clear answers, just go with “I don’t know” for the time being.

Quote:

The bottom line is that most of the events that people question were devastating to humanity and justice. For example, millions of people in the middle east have been killed in wars like the hoax war for weapons of mass destruction that never existed, and instead of individuals responsible for that hoax being brought to justice, the next Administration, Obama/Biden expanded the war from two countries to seven countries, killed a million more people, and we actually ran out of bombs!


It appears that in 2015/2016 our stockpiles of PGMs began to run low, but I could not find any source that supports your claim that “we actually ran out of bombs!” See:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/......unition/


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16339 Posts

Profile of tommy
Apart from David Blaine, have any other magicians performed at Epstein’s homes?

Does anything describe the tension between what we know and what we suspect about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes better than Stanley Kubrick's "Eyes Wide Shut"?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2599 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
It seems that a lot of the posts here are taking the same syllogistic form:

1) The government has lied about things in the past
2) The government could be lying about things in the present
3) Therefore, I have a rational justification in holding any position, regardless of the evidence for or against

This type of reasoning is not a pathway to truth, and in fact, falls victim to several logical fallacies. It is a way for people to cherry pick more fanciful stories in the absence of sufficient evidence. There is a difference between not believing a proposition and believing its negation. This seems to be tripping people up.

Side note: I've said it several times now and I'll say it again...when bringing up Epstein in the video, I was NOT implying there wasn't anything suspicious. The point is that claiming his death is connected to the "Clinton crime network", an FBI coverup, or as a result of him being "too connected" to too many power players who were afraid he'd talk ARE conspiracy theories because they are just assertions without evidence.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5107 Posts

Profile of landmark
Stephen: totally agreed, speculation is not evidence.

But your video is about *why* people believe conspiracy theories. And your video, best I remember, leaves out the key reason--exactly premise number one in your above post. The government and intelligence agencies lie all the time. Serially.

When your significant other has a history of cheating on you, and then you find lipstick on their collar and strange underwear in the bed, yes then people will *rationally* conclude that something is up. They might not have jumped to that conclusion had their partner not repeatedly cheated on them.

Now people jump to unwarranted conclusions sometimes--I grant you that. But rather than condemn them, let's have a little more curiosity and find out what's leading them in that direction, rather than discounting their intuition and suspicions.

It's the difference between, "Hey you know, that is too much of a coincidence to swallow," and "Nothing to see hear, you're stupid, move along."
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20836 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
The problem is some people watch an episode of Criminal Minds and two Law and Order episodes and suddenly think they are investigators.

Investigation is a skill. It is a learned skill and believe it or not has less to do with "common sense" than most want to believe. It takes years to develop this skill and years of training.

So forgive me if an armchair conspiracy guy who watched JFK 218 times falls low on my list of people I would take seriously about an opinion of that event.

Most conspiracy theorists tend to read things they agree with. Not really the best Investigation technique.

So no. Not everyone gets to play. Not everyone needs to be taken seriously. Not every opinion matters and not everyone needs to have others assuage their feelings. There are opinions that are ridiculous on their face and should be ignored. Not all opinions have equal merit no matter how strongly people feel them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
View Profile
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
175 Posts

Profile of R.S.
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2020, landmark wrote:
Stephen: totally agreed, speculation is not evidence.

But your video is about *why* people believe conspiracy theories. And your video, best I remember, leaves out the key reason--exactly premise number one in your above post. The government and intelligence agencies lie all the time. Serially.



But there are conspiracy theories that don’t necessarily involve government. For example, flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, and climate change deniers who simply reject the science. And conspiracies surrounding the deaths of Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, Bruce Lee, etc. So although lying doesn’t help, people will still gravitate towards the sensational over the mundane – even though the mundane explanations may be more plausible.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2599 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
Jack, I agree that we need a healthy dose of skepticism for ANY truth claim, whether that claim comes from some government agency, FOX news, CNN, wherever...

The key is to apportion our belief to the strength of the evidence.

I have no problem with someone being skeptical of what they're being told. The problem arises, as Danny rightfully brings up, when people think they can Google their way from skepticism about some particular event to a very specific (and groundless) claim using nothing more than wild speculation and unfounded assertions.

Here's where we differ. You said,
Quote:
The government and intelligence agencies lie all the time. Serially.


A couple of thoughts here:

  • This is a claim that would need to be demonstrated. Given that "the government" provides us such a massive amount of information, you'd have quite a task ahead of you to make your case.
  • Intelligence agencies rarely communicate anything with the public directly. Their job is to provide the best intelligence possible to the people responsible for making the decisions. Whether those decision-makers distort or misrepresent what they were told by the IC has no bearing on the accuracy of the intelligence data itself. So, once again, this is a claim that would need to be demonstrated.
  • The viability of a conspiracy is quite low, given the number of people involved and the long time span. For example, if the moon landing was faked, it would have required 400,000 NASA employees to pull it off and keep quiet about it for the last 50 years. Not likely. Here's an interesting research paper that discusses this very thing. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl.......0147905
  • Given the high-tech, interdependent world we live in today, it is HARDER, not EASIER, for large groups of people to conceal the truth. Look at Wikileaks. They have hundreds of thousands of documents and texts. If the world still moved on paper, they wouldn't be able to get a fraction of that.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16339 Posts

Profile of tommy
How exactly is believing the earth is flat a conspiracy theory?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2599 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
Granted, there are probably many flavors of conspiracy theory regarding flat earth, but generally speaking, they believe that:


  • World governments and the scientific elite know the truth but have kept it from us for centuries
  • All photographic evidence is faked
  • GPS devices are rigged to make pilots think they are flying in straight lines around a sphere when they are actually flying in circles above a disc
  • The motive for world governments' concealment of the true shape of the Earth is unknown, but it is probably financial


There's probably a bunch more if you checked out their web sites. There are A LOT of them.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16339 Posts

Profile of tommy
So it is not a conspiracy theory to believe the earth flat but it is a conspiracy theory to posit that somebody is trying to make us think it is not by deception.

So, in reality, are the flat earthers the real conspirators?

Perhaps our primary aim ought to be to reach the children before the flat earther convince them that the Earth is flat.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5107 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2020, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2020, landmark wrote:
Stephen: totally agreed, speculation is not evidence.

But your video is about *why* people believe conspiracy theories. And your video, best I remember, leaves out the key reason--exactly premise number one in your above post. The government and intelligence agencies lie all the time. Serially.



But there are conspiracy theories that don’t necessarily involve government. For example, flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, and climate change deniers who simply reject the science. And conspiracies surrounding the deaths of Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, Bruce Lee, etc.

Ron


That's a fair point. But I think you're wrong about anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers. Whether one agrees with them or not, they are all about the government in adherents minds: supposed overreaching environmental regulations and medical regulations.
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2599 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
I would also argue that the fundamental mistrust of government is baked into our DNA. Even Montesquieu in the 18th century talked about how much mistrust Americans have of their own elected government. So I would argue that the mistrust of government stems from our desire to enforce a limited government based on our history with unchecked centralized power. The subsequent abuses of governmental power certainly added fuel to the fire, but the fire was already raging.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5107 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
Here's where we differ. You said,
Quote:

The government and intelligence agencies lie all the time. Serially.



A couple of thoughts here:


[1] This is a claim that would need to be demonstrated. Given that "the government" provides us such a massive amount of information, you'd have quite a task ahead of you to make your case.
[2]Intelligence agencies rarely communicate anything with the public directly. Their job is to provide the best intelligence possible to the people responsible for making the decisions. Whether those decision-makers distort or misrepresent what they were told by the IC has no bearing on the accuracy of the intelligence data itself. So, once again, this is a claim that would need to be demonstrated.
[3]The viability of a conspiracy is quite low, given the number of people involved and the long time span. For example, if the moon landing was faked, it would have required 400,000 NASA employees to pull it off and keep quiet about it for the last 50 years. Not likely. Here's an interesting research paper that discusses this very thing. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl.......0147905
[4]Given the high-tech, interdependent world we live in today, it is HARDER, not EASIER, for large groups of people to conceal the truth. Look at Wikileaks. They have hundreds of thousands of documents and texts. If the world still moved on paper, they wouldn't be able to get a fraction of that.


[1] Gosh, I think you'd have a much harder time demonstrating that those in the government *don't* serially lie. The documents from Wikileaks, Snowden (thank you for your service, genuine heroes), The Church Committee, Watergate hearings, Iran-Contra hearings, and on and on prove over and over again *serial* lying by the executive, military and intelligence branches of the government. And we are at the point where they barely try to cover up their lies. Evidently those in power now feel it's more effective to lie blatantly and taunt others to do something about it. They know they will not be held accountable. What is the Washington Post tally up to these days? Last time I looked it was 20,000 or something like that? I'm not suggesting that this is at all new. After all, I come from a generation who was used to hearing every three months for ten years like clockwork that "The generals tell us we are turning the tide, there's light at the end of the tunnel," regarding the Vietnam War. Thank you, General Westmoreland.

[2] In plain sight: James Clapper, Director of National Intelligence, perjured himself before Congress. Before the very committee that is supposed to provide oversight for intelligence matters. He should be behind bars for five years, not a "consultant" for CNN. And all the other CIA opertaions that Dulles and his succesors blatantly lied about: the murder and overthrow of democratically elected governments in Iran, Guatamala, Syria, Indonesia, The Congo, lying about the U-2 incident, The Dominican Republic, The Bay of Pigs, Burma, Laos, Brazil, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Chile. That's just a cursory view of *one* intelligence agency. The chemical and biological experimentation on home turf by various branches of the military was well-documented by Seymour Hersh and others, etc., etc.

[3] Yes, for some conspiracies it would require many to be quiet about it. But the thing is, sometimes they're not, and that's part of why we know what we know. See Phillip Agee, Victor Marchetti and other ex-CIA agents.

[4] Yes it is harder, not easier for large groups of people to conceal the truth. Much of the awful things that are done in the world, are done under our noses, and the documentation is there for those who care to look (see items 1,2,3). The question is whether we *will* look and whether we *will* hold them accountable for their crimes. Many many Americans feel powerless to do anything in the face of it and so are naturally suspicious of *all* government communications. That, to get back to the original question, is one major reason conspiracy theories flourish. Because people know that those in power lie all the time to them, so they seek other explanations.
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16339 Posts

Profile of tommy
Anybody that reads the 9/11 Commission Report can see that it posits a conspiracy theory throughout

i.e.

“The operational leader of the 9/11 conspiracy, Mohamed Atta, went on line from Hamburg Germany to research U.S. flight schools.” - The 9/11 Commission Report

Not only does the 9/11 Commission Report posit a conspiracy theory but posits a conspiracy theory based on a pack of lies:

The chair and vice-chair of the 9/11 Commission, respectively Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, assert in their book, Without Precedent, that they were "set up to fail" and were starved of funds to do a proper investigation. They also confirm that they were denied access to the truth and misled by senior officials in the Pentagon and the federal aviation authority; and that this obstruction and deception led them to contemplate slapping officials with criminal charges.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
View Profile
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
175 Posts

Profile of R.S.
Quote:
On Oct 25, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2020, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2020, landmark wrote:
Stephen: totally agreed, speculation is not evidence.

But your video is about *why* people believe conspiracy theories. And your video, best I remember, leaves out the key reason--exactly premise number one in your above post. The government and intelligence agencies lie all the time. Serially.



But there are conspiracy theories that don’t necessarily involve government. For example, flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, and climate change deniers who simply reject the science. And conspiracies surrounding the deaths of Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, Bruce Lee, etc.

Ron


That's a fair point. But I think you're wrong about anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers. Whether one agrees with them or not, they are all about the government in adherents minds: supposed overreaching environmental regulations and medical regulations.


I see your point. But I think the government's involvement here is secondary to proponents of these conspiracy theories. I think that if you removed any connection to government whatsoever, you'd still have people claiming climate change is a hoax and that vaccines cause autism. Adding the government to the equation just adds icing to the conspiracy cake.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
ed rhodes
View Profile
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2806 Posts

Profile of ed rhodes
Well, here's a new one that's started circulating;

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/d......ry-again
"All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast!" - Oscar Wilde
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Conspiracy Theories » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (25 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..12~13~14~15~16~17~18 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2022 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.34 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL