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Steven Keyl
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This is a video I posted a few days ago on YouTube:


The most interesting part are the responses on FB where this was originally posted:
https://www.facebook.com/StevenKeyl/post......_comment

Though I can't get the actual metrics, it seems like most people are posting comments without having actually watched the video--which is something that happens all too often these days, it seems. In any event, if you're so inclined, give it a look.

Happy Friday, and stay safe!
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
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If a conspiracy theory was proved then it would not be a theory anymore would it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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It's the opposite of Fight Club where you can talk about it all you want but they hide the metrics from us. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
R.S.
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Quote:
On May 8, 2020, Steven Keyl wrote:
This is a video I posted a few days ago on YouTube:


The most interesting part are the responses on FB where this was originally posted:
https://www.facebook.com/StevenKeyl/post......_comment

Though I can't get the actual metrics, it seems like most people are posting comments without having actually watched the video--which is something that happens all too often these days, it seems. In any event, if you're so inclined, give it a look.

Happy Friday, and stay safe!


Well done! Thanks Steve.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jonathan Townsend
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You can get them talking about their theories... to what purpose? Listen more and you hear the complaints (ain't it awful) and playbows for rounds of "yes but". And then what?

Time bandits!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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You can get them, police conspirators, talking on tape and get yourself off conspiracy charges. Note there is no IMHO in that.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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OK, I'll bite. Take this as friendly devil's advocacy.

I think the framing of disagreement of world views as "conspiracy theorizing" is not conducive to rational discourse.

What is the difference between a "conspiracy" and a conspiracy? Most bodies of law seem to recognize the possibility of the latter.

What (and who) determines whether something is a "conspiracy" or not?

Are there no individuals who act in concert, secretly, to achieve common goals? Are there no nation-states, or governments which act in concert, secretly to achieve common goals? Are there no intelligence services which act in concert, secretly, to achieve common goals? Even the most cursory examination of the historical record confirms such actions.

Who gains from such a view?

IMO, in rational discourse, when there are differences over surrounding evidence regarding an issue, rather than dismiss one side as conspiracy theorists, it's more useful to provide opposing evidence so that people can make up their own minds, and do further research. The rest is name-calling.
Steven Keyl
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Jack, did you watch the video? What I mean by "conspiracy theory" is when one rejects the consensus conclusion that has a varying level of empirical support (which is fine, and not in and of itself a conspiracy theory) AND THEN substitutes it with an alternate narrative that is far less likely.

The point of the video is to explain the psychological attraction to a conspiracy theory when there is insufficient evidence to warrant belief.

Quote:
I think the framing of disagreement of world views as "conspiracy theorizing" is not conducive to rational discourse.


I agree. I've never suggested that every disagreement is summarily classified as a conspiracy theorizing, and you're smarter than to try to straw man my position is such a transparent way.

Quote:
What is the difference between a "conspiracy" and a conspiracy? Most bodies of law seem to recognize the possibility of the latter.


The legal definition of a conspiracy is quite different than a "conspiracy theory", but again I think you know that. I think you're being intentionally obtuse, but I'll play along. A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister, hidden, and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. A conspiracy theory is generally marked by several common characteristics (Note that not every conspiracy theory contains every characteristic):

  • No amount of evidence would dissuade the conspiracy believers
  • Any attempt to falsify a conspiracy theory is met with even more intricate, and less plausible explanations
  • Lack of evidence in support of a conspiracy theory is taken as proof of a massive coverup
  • Involves unknown, secret, organizations with vast resources and members


Quote:
Are there no individuals who act in concert, secretly, to achieve common goals? Are there no nation-states, or governments which act in concert, secretly to achieve common goals? Are there no intelligence services which act in concert, secretly, to achieve common goals? Even the most cursory examination of the historical record confirms such actions.


I've never claimed that conspiracies don't exist--in fact, history plainly shows us that they do. Again, you're trying to saddle me with a position that I don't hold.

While there are exceptions, the majority of conspiracy theories (think "flat earthers", moon landing conspiracies, etc.) are not just differences of opinion. Saying Jeffrey Epstein's death was likely not suicide is one thing, but when you further claim that his death was orchestrated by Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, and other members of the deep state, without any evidence whatsoever, you've crossed the line into conspiracy theory.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
magicfish
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Do we really need clarification on the difference between an actual conspiracy
And conspiracy theories?
Dannydoyle
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Jessie Ventura thinks we do.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Quote:
Jack, did you watch the video?


Steve, I wouldn't have commented had I not done so.

Quote:
What I mean by "conspiracy theory" is when one rejects the consensus conclusion that has a varying level of empirical support (which is fine, and not in and of itself a conspiracy theory) AND THEN substitutes it with an alternate narrative that is far less likely.


"Consensus conclusion," "varying level of empirical support," "far less likely" are exactly my points of contention. Person A's conspiracy theory is Person's B studied opinion and vice-versa. Consensus conclusion may be incorrect, varying levels of support are just that, varying, and far less likely does not necessarily mean incorrect.

All too often the term is used to squash further discussion of certain issues--and while I probably agree with you on 99.9% of the things you would consider outlandish, the use of the term to me is problematic. It stops us from evaluating claims too soon.
tommy
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That is why I only watched the first two minutes of the video because it only took me that long to see it was based on a diatribe of nonsense and false premises
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Steven Keyl
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Jack, I'm not following your point.

Are you saying that my definition of conspiracy theory isn't defined enough? If so, then move two paragraphs down to the more formalized definition:

Quote:
A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister, hidden, and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. A conspiracy theory is generally marked by several common characteristics (Note that not every conspiracy theory contains every characteristic):


  • No amount of evidence would dissuade the conspiracy believers
  • Any attempt to falsify a conspiracy theory is met with even more intricate, and less plausible explanations
  • Lack of evidence in support of a conspiracy theory is taken as proof of a massive coverup
  • Involves unknown, secret, organizations with vast resources and members



-------------

Or are you saying that all assertions deserve equal consideration in the marketplace of ideas? When Alex Jones says that Sandy Hook never happened, are we required to convene a panel of experts to launch an investigation into whether or not this school shooting actually happened? I don't think this is a defensible idea, but I also don't think this is what you're trying to say (at least I hope not).

-------------

Or are you saying that the term "conspiracy theory" should not be used when discussing unsupported, non-falsifiable assertions that involve secret societies and global coverups with hidden and nefarious motives? As with all language, words are a shorthand to convey ideas. But if you'd prefer a different term, what do you propose?

While I agree that people sometimes lump legitimate skepticism in with other conspiracy theories, that is not sufficient reason to eliminate its use altogether.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Pop Haydn
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All of the important conspiracy theories since the Kennedy Assassination and the fake Moon Landing, have been generated from the same tiny, sinister cabal in Lithuania. They seek world domination through sowing confusion and selling videos. This becomes obvious when you research the secret files of the Illuminati at the Democratic National Committee. You just have to get past the giant three-headed dog...
magicfish
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Now that's a conspiracy theory.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 11, 2020, Pop Haydn wrote:
All of the important conspiracy theories since the Kennedy Assassination and the fake Moon Landing, have been generated from the same tiny, sinister cabal in Lithuania. They seek world domination through sowing confusion and selling videos. This becomes obvious when you research the secret files of the Illuminati at the Democratic National Committee. You just have to get past the giant three-headed dog...


Well played.

I know this is true. Bigfoot told me it was in the Loch Ness Monster's autobiography.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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That was funny last week.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
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Quote:
On May 11, 2020, landmark wrote:
--and while I probably agree with you on 99.9% of the things you would consider outlandish, the use of the term to me is problematic.


I was trying to think of something else where not acquiescing to the .1% in naming/description is problematic, but I couldn't come up with anything. Seems like you're giving undue weight to that .1%?

If a "conspiracy theory" graduates to an actual conspiracy, so be it. But I think the term (per Steve's description) is appropriate and useful.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
tommy
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Well I wasn’t one of those who believed the Lithuanian Russian Gate conspiracy theory anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On May 11, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Well played.

I know this is true. Bigfoot told me


His name is Darryl. Smile
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