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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Conspiracy Theories » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 15, 2020, landmark wrote:
Got you. Thanks.

I've often thought that the most important thing to come out of the whole Watergate escapade was catching Nixon's guys on tape talking about "the modified limited hangout."

"PRESIDENT: You think, you think we want to, want to go this route now? And the — let it hang out, so to speak?
DEAN: Well, it's, it isn't really that —
HALDEMAN: It's a limited hang out.
DEAN: It's a limited hang out.
EHRLICHMAN: It's a modified limited hang out."

So my basic premise is that what one knows about any of these agencies--if you've heard of them at all, as you point out--is a modified limited hangout when they're caught. The reality is almost always worse.

So James Clapper can lie through his teeth to Congress (evidently that now gets you a spot on cable tv as a national security analyst rather than five years in prison for perjury) and lie about everything else. Remember "it's just the metadata." Uh, no, it's not just the metadata. And even then, most people had no idea about what could be inferred from "just the metadata" when collected in bulk, and connected in bulk.

Anyway, my Conspiracy Theory theory (!) is that the rise in conspiracy theories, irrational as some of them may be, is not in itself an irrational response. It's a direct result of the public's awareness that they are being lied to every single day by the most powerful in society about very important matters. The secret intelligence agencies have eroded trust in any sense of democracy and a truly informed public.


Not quite as true as you think but certainly part of the theory.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2020, landmark wrote:

...Anyway, my Conspiracy Theory theory (!) is that the rise in conspiracy theories, irrational as some of them may be, is not in itself an irrational response. It's a direct result of the public's awareness that they are being lied to every single day by the most powerful in society about very important matters. The secret intelligence agencies have eroded trust in any sense of democracy and a truly informed public.


Where we disagree: As any good skeptic will tell you, it is always an irrational response to believe something absent sufficient evidence, regardless of past events.

Where we agree: Americans have had a mistrust of government as far as back as our founding. This mistrust has grown, however, with each governmental abuse of power that comes to light. So, I certainly agree with you as to why it happens, but I don't agree that it's a rational response.

People that believe these things aren't stupid or more gullible than everyone else, they just lack a broader understanding of how things actually work (particularly inside the intelligence community). Because of the required secretive nature of intelligence work, it automatically inspires fear because we fear the unknown. It's a self-preservation instinct to mistrust what we don't understand.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
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The Cold War was essentially two grand criminal conspiracies; the Capitalist and the Communist criminal conspiracies. With each set of conspirators conspiring to overthrow the other’s empire and with one grand criminal conspiracy coordinated by the CIA and the other by the KGB. Out of these two grand criminal conspiracies, many lesser related criminal conspiracies arose.

https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/232413
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Steven Keyl
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Image
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Thanks for that. That film, made the year after the Cuban missile crisis and the failed CIA attempts to murder Castro and overturn the revolution at the Bay of Pigs, confirms that the FBI, too, couldn't stand that JFK had successfully averted a nuclear war with the Russians over Cuba, and was determined to discount his genius in negotiating his way out of a terrible situation.

Of course what the film doesn't mention is the trade off with the Russians that averted catastrophe. The US had missiles stationed in Turkey aimed at the USSR, every bit as threatening to the USSR as the Russian missiles aimed at Florida were, and Kennedy and Khrushchev came to a secret agreement for both of them to withdraw their missiles.

An instructive example of how the US intelligence agencies have their own unaccountable agendas, apart from the leaders that the American people had elected.
Jonathan Townsend
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I saw a little mention (9/10/20) of "qualified immunity". Interesting topic. So much so that it deserves two lines of distraction. Nothing to see - move along.

* There's a story about Hoover meeting RFK and some stress over prestige/tradition.
* Personal interests <> political interests <> economic interests <> institutional interests <> national interests
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Jonathan Townsend
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Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Philbrick

Okay, he said "godless". He must have been confused about unions, collective bargaining, and American diversity.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
ed rhodes
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"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
tommy
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Quote:
On Sep 17, 2020, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Philbrick

Okay, he said "godless". He must have been confused about unions, collective bargaining, and American diversity.


No American operation against the Soviet Union would be complete without its propaganda side: bringing the gospel to the heathen.


The JFK assassination and the gospel of Saint Warren.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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tommy
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"We must always remember Bertrand Russell’s profound unanswered question after he had received an advanced copy of the Warren Report."

https://jenniferlake.wordpress.com/tag/john-j-mccloy/

Russell's article was published two weeks to the day before the Report was presented to President Johnson. Much of it had been leaked and so everybody in effect had an advance copy of it.
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landmark
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Perhaps this would be a good time to put forth another Conspiracy Theory theory: one technique that the major intelligence services from all countries use to throw people off the track is to disseminate "conspiracy" theories that are so outrageously false or convoluted that they distract and discredit actual attempts to find the truth.

I believe that something like this has happened with 9-11 conspiracy theories. By promulgating easily disprovable theories, it distracted attention from actual politically embarrassing facts (e.g. the facts that the Bush Administration knew an attack was coming but incompetently ignored them; and the fact that the Bush family had many business ties with the Bin Laden family were highly embarrassing facts. Promulgating a theory that 9-11 was an "inside job" with thousands involved is easily dismissed by the lack of evidence; but with that dismissal is the flushing down the drain of the previously mentioned facts. We see this for example with UFO theories--most likely they're encouraged to distract away from various other secret military operations.

And one last point in a somewhat different direction.
The credibility of a theory often rests on the prior knowledge of the listener.
I will call this "The Memdeck Theory of Credibility."

Outline: When a layperson experiences a card trick that could only have been done through the application of a memorized deck, the spec is stumped. Because even if s/he figures out that the trick could have been done had the magician memorized every card in the deck, *they know that no one in their right mind would go to the obvious trouble of memorizing the order of a deck of cards*

But we know better, don't we?

So a literally incredible effect, becomes quite simply explained when one has that prior knowledge of the existence of memdeck practitioners.

Okay, here's the wrap-up: many "Conspiracy" theories seem incredible because the layperson's assumption is that no government would knowingly kill its own innocent people. But if you have prior knowledge that that has in fact occurred, then the incredible becomes a lot more credible.
Dannydoyle
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Newsflash. No need to make up stupid conspiracies. People provide them all on their own.

To provide more cover would not be needed and would expose the agencies needlessly.

Indeed it is a conspiracy theory and in most cases simply is not needed.

Also you're just a bit disingenuous with the Bush administration knowing an attack was coming. Were they given an exact time and place for an attack and ignored it? It is a big country with lots of targets. Let's not pretend that they knew when and where and let it happen. It is not intellectually honest.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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I didn't say they knew the exact time and place. They were told it was a high priority risk by the outgoing administration and they chose to play it down, despite further confirmations of the risk. They miscalculated the warnings' importance.

I'm not saying it was a nefarious plot, but it *was* a tremendous political mistake. And the entanglement with the Bush inner circle's businesses, especially the Carlyle Group, and the business interests of the Bin Ladens was another enormous embarrassment. They had no idea that that relationship was literally going to blow up in their faces.

As for people providing stupid theories all on their own--agreed, they certainly do. But I think we also both know that there is a huge presence of intelligence operatives from every major country online everyday, attempting to shape and influence social discourse one way and another. Rumor-mongering is stock in trade for such agencies.
Dannydoyle
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The media does that online crap more to push their worldview.

And again you're blinded by hate of the Bush administration and a capitalist society so you want those things to be true.

What could have been done to prevent it given the information they had?

Now the RESPONSE was botched beyond belief! There is more meat on that bone than prior if you ask me.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Gentlemen don't read each others mail.
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tommy
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Getting Italians in the USA to write letters to their relatives in Italy begging them not to vote for the communists proved very effective, among other things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3zbDptbZIk
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Sep 18, 2020, tommy did not write:
... its propaganda side: bringing the [good] to the [wanting].

Some people are taught that the benefits of their [belief] are only available through the physical/personal [institution]. Could that be a necessary condition for asset/market bubbles and a language which presumes expansion as baseline and measures good in terms of expansion rate? hmmmm? Smile

Perhaps we are fortunate that no two of the the larger established brands of wealth management, faith, and science have successfully turned on the third.

* [not for Danny] does Conservative imply entitlement? [/not for Danny]
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tommy
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The cover-up of the cover-up of the cover-up?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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landmark
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Further Conspiracy Theory theory:

Elaborate Cover ups are no longer needed because of the high noise to signal ratio in the culture.

And...

because the naked display of (power, cruelty, injustice) is the point.
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