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Jonathan Townsend
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Giving the game away there. More a play bow for inclusion than a rope of reason.
Gorgias for casual conversation. Smile

Or so the teapot wants us to believe.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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Since it was a criminal conspiracy, it is only right and proper to use the legal definition of conspiracy, as opposed to some idiotic, tautological, definition of conspiracy that was dreamt up by the CIA and adopted by the indoctrinated lone nuts.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Steven Keyl
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Redefining the common usage of the term "conspiracy theory" in order to legitimize otherwise indefensible positions is intellectually dishonest.

SIDE NOTE: The CIA did not invent the term "conspiracy theory" in order to discredit those people critical of the Warren commission report. The term has been in use since 1870, and even during the 1960's the term "conspiracy theory" did NOT have the negative connotations we associate with it today. That didn't happen until the 1980's.
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tommy
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Redefining the common usage of the term "conspiracy theory" in order to legitimize otherwise indefensible positions is intellectually dishonest. That is true and so why do yo lone nuts do it?

SIDE NOTE: No one said the CIA invented the term "conspiracy theory" so your side note is a straw man.
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 19, 2020, Steven Keyl wrote:
Redefining the common usage of the term "conspiracy theory" in order to legitimize otherwise indefensible positions is intellectually dishonest.

SIDE NOTE: The CIA did not invent the term "conspiracy theory" in order to discredit those people critical of the Warren commission report. The term has been in use since 1870, and even during the 1960's the term "conspiracy theory" did NOT have the negative connotations we associate with it today. That didn't happen until the 1980's.


You will never be able to use logic move someone from a position they didn't use logic to get into in the first place. This is what is the largest asset of the conspiracy theory.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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Conspiracy (n.)
mid-14c., "a plotting of evil, unlawful design; a combination of persons for an evil purpose," from Anglo-French conspiracie, Old French conspiracie "conspiracy, plot," from Latin conspirationem (nominative conspiratio) "agreement, union, unanimity," noun of action from past-participle stem of conspirare "to agree, unite, plot," literally "to breathe together" (see conspire).
Earlier in same sense was conspiration (early 14c.), from French conspiration (13c.), from Latin conspirationem. An Old English word for it was facengecwis.

theory (n.)
1590s, "conception, mental scheme," from Late Latin theoria (Jerome), from Greek theōria "contemplation, speculation; a looking at, viewing; a sight, show, spectacle, things looked at," from theōrein "to consider, speculate, look at," from theōros "spectator," from thea "a view" (see theater) + horan "to see," which is possibly from PIE root *wer- (3) "to perceive."

Earlier in this sense was theorical (n.), late 15c. Sense of "principles or methods of a science or art" (rather than its practice) is first recorded 1610s (as in music theory, which is the science of musical composition, apart from practice or performance). Sense of "an intelligible explanation based on observation and reasoning" is from 1630s.

Thus, a “conspiracy theory” is somebodies “view” that a “plot” exists or existed to do an evil, unlawful act.
Note: however, that not all conspirators are of the view that their plot is evil and are often not unlawful at all and they are quite open about what they aspire to bring about. These are called open conspiracies.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
1KJ
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Quote:
On Oct 18, 2020, Steven Keyl wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 5, 2020, 1KJ wrote:
I thought the video was pretty flawed. What he calls a "commonly regarded explanation" isn't always "commonly regarded". He used Jeffrey Epstein as an example of a source of "conspiracy theories". This is a perfect example of why people would try to solve a mystery where what he calls the "commonly accepted explanation" is SO WEAK that reasonable people would say "I don't buy it". From the 1990s to this day, the FBI has covered up evidence in this powerful pedophilia ring. The FBI seized all of the Epstein evidence OVER ONE YEAR AGO and they have not made a single arrest of any of the powerful individuals alleged by multiple victims to be perpetrators in pedophilia crimes. Bill Clinton lied about how many times he was on the Lolita Express. He lied about whether he was on Pedophile Island. He has lied about his proclivities for being a sexual predator in the past. His history is that when he lies about evidence that might involve him, it is because he is REALLY INVOLVED. However, instead of there being an honest pursuit of justice, people are told things like: "We asked Bill and he said he knows nothing about it", so nothing to see here. Or, how about: "We have asked Prince Andrew if he wouldn't mind cooperating, and so far he hasn't. Oh well, maybe one day he will change his mind". If you can't see that obviously Prince Andrew and Bill Clinton were involved in a pedophilia ring, then you need your head examined! what about Leslie Wexner's involvement in this pedophilia ring? Are we going to continue pretending that he wasn't a key player in this? There hasn't been a single word on his highly suspect actions in this case because he is a powerful CEO... Well, former CEO now.

Don't blame people who are trying to figure out what really happened. Instead of calling them "crazy conspiracy theories", why don't you just call them "theories to be investigated", given many of these issues have not been investigated properly. BTW, in the case of Epstein, obviously someone other than the FBI needs to be doing the investigating, and someone needs to investigate the FBI to find out why they covered up evidence regarding this ring that could have saved hundreds of victims

Who is being naive now?

KJ


You seem to be conflating suspicion with guilt. You provide a string of evidence free assertions and you fill in the blanks with what you believe happened. That is never a means at arriving at the truth. It’s just a fun pastime for people to engage in wild speculation.

And, as mentioned in the video, engaging in conspiracy theories is a way to meet our psychological need to have someone to blame, or some group to blame, for all the bad things that happen that we don’t understand.


Sorry, I am not. Involvement and "guilt" are two different things. First, there is undisputed evidence that Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew had some involvement. I am not going to go into the litany of evidence, you can easily look it up. Guilty? Perhaps. Second, they both lied about their involvement. Evidence of involvement they are trying to conceal? Yes. Third, when there are highly powerful people involved, the FBI handles things differently. It wouldn't take over a year with no arrests (I am referring to the elites) if the individuals involved were not elite. Finally, if anyone doesn't realize that the FBI and CIA have a long history of illegal and immoral activity, then you just don't know your history very well.
tommy
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“Engaging in conspiracy theories is a way to meet our psychological need to have someone to blame, or some group to blame, for all the bad things that happen that we don’t understand.” - Steven Keyl

Engaging in that common old ploy is bit naff:

Https://philpapers.org/archive/PIGCTA-2.pdf
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
1KJ
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Quote:
On Oct 19, 2020, tommy wrote:
“Engaging in conspiracy theories is a way to meet our psychological need to have someone to blame, or some group to blame, for all the bad things that happen that we don’t understand.” - Steven Keyl

Engaging in that common old ploy is bit naff:

Https://philpapers.org/archive/PIGCTA-2.pdf


Thank you for sharing this. I completely agree that there is a prevalence of the notion that "conspiracy theories" should be neither believed nor investigated. In fact, the opposite is generally true.
It seems that the term "conspiracy theory" is often used to designate something were justice may not have been carried out accurately or thoroughly, and it is a way to say: "This is off limits". "If you question it, then there must be something wrong with your brain". I like that the article talks about how most times, the subjects of "conspiracy theories" need additional honest investigation.

I think that the most significant reason people engage in what others call "conspiracy theories" is that people have an innate need for truth, justice, and complete honesty.

KJ
tommy
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Under Steve’s video on YouTube he puts a link to a book for further reading and this link takes one to a book called “Voodoo Histories: The Role of the Conspiracy Theory in Shaping Modern History by David Aaronovitch.

Now here is something about Aaronovitch, the anti-conspiracy theory book writer, that readers might find interesting:

“Aaronovitch gave strong support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Since the invasion he has taken the view that it liberated Iraqis, and has played down the significance of Iraq's putative weapons of mass destruction. However, he wrote in 2003: "If nothing is eventually found, I – as a supporter of the war – will never believe another thing that I am told by our government, or that of the US ever again.”

See Wiki
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Yes, speaking of Iraq, it would have been nicer had he addressed himself to the conspiracy theories that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents: the conspiracy lies that Iraq had WMDs, the conspiracy lies about yellow cake and aluminum tubes presented by conspiracy-theorist Colin Powell to the UN; the conspiracy theory lies of the President that Saddam Hussein had supported the Al Qaeda operation; the conspiracy lies that New York Times "journalist" Judith Miller--whose name will go down in the annals of craven government stenography--told, whose work has been totally discredited.

Somehow Aaronovich missed denouncing those conspiracies. I wonder why.

See the thing is, when a person gets on YouTube and claims the moonlanding was a hoax, yeah, you can laugh and make fun of him or her, but he's basically harmless. But when the government spouts their conspiracy lies, hundreds of thousands of innocent people get bombed, lose their lives, or their homes. False conspiracy theories about immigrants, "Antifa" "socialists" are far more important to dissect and dismantle. An intellectually honest approach to understanding conspiracy theories would address the conspiracy theories which cause the largest harm. What is *their* origin, and what sectors of society benefit from *those* disseminations?
Dannydoyle
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HUGE difference in a "conspiracy theory" and something like telling lies to go to war.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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They didn't just tell lies. They wove a conspiracy theory about Iraq that was supposed to paint them with WMDs and the capability and will to use them. It was as much a nonsensical conspiracy theory as any "Paul is Dead" theory. But infinitely more dangerous and destructive. That is the difference.

Imagine..."Paul is Dead"..."you killed him"... "we will destroy your country." The additon of the latter two parts doesn't make it more acceptable or less of a conspiracy theory.
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No one is saying that governments never lie to their people. That is not a conspiracy theory, it is an actual conspiracy. So what's the difference? A "conspiracy theory" is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. Appealing to a conspiracy theory is generally based on prejudice, fear or insufficient evidence.

The time to believe something is when the weight of the evidence supports such a belief. Choosing to believe in something absent sufficient evidence invariably leads to confirmation bias, the observer effect and expectation bias. This type of thinking has never shown to be a reliable pathway to the truth.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Oct 19, 2020, tommy wrote:

...No one said the CIA invented the term "conspiracy theory" so your side note is a straw man.


This idea is a well known trope among conspiracy theorists, so it's clearly not a straw man. Example: https://www.topsecretwriters.com/2018/02......scredit/

You seemed to be implying same, so I included it as a point of clarification, not as a rebuttal to anything you said. My apologies for not making that clearer.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Steven Keyl
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Jack, another point of note. I don't think that all crazy fringe theories are harmless. Case in point, QAnon.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/......tp-feeds

It's a good example to show how far our biases can take us away from rational belief. And in cases like these, while some may laugh at them, these types of ideas are far from harmless.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
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Lone nut rules of the game:

Rule One: It is OK to believe official conspiracy theories but not OK to believe conspiracy theories that contradict official conspiracy theories.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Steven Keyl
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Now THAT is a great example of a straw man. Well done, Tommy.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
tommy
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If one were in Iraq before the war it would have been OK to believe the official line there, namely that Saddam was not conspiring with Al-Qaida and not conspiring to hide weapons of mass destruction from the weapons inspectors and if one posited such a conspiracy theory there then one would have been called a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy nut. On the other hand, if one were in England before the war, one could posit such conspiracy theories about Saddam, as such were posited by Tony Blair and the Government here, and be called a sensible boy and a patriot.

Is that is a straw man, then you can call me a scarecrow.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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