I learned at a young age, while I was studying magic and Erdnase, that much of what I read in books about gambling ploys and manipulative moves was oftentimes incomplete, inaccurate and sometimes total nonsense. However, to put things in context regarding the difference between hustling and doing demonstrations, let me give an example. It was a motion picture that turned on the light bulb in my head. It was a western movie called The Lawman starring Burt Lancaster

In this motion picture Lancaster was a hard-nosed lawman who brought back those he chased either dead or alive. Did not really matter one way or the other but he always tried to give his opponents a choice.

In any event, he travels to this western town looking for a few cowboys to bring back for trial and of course his reputation precedes him. One of the sub-plots is there is a young cowboy in town who is extremely good with a six gun. He is great shot and has a very fast draw. Of course, he is just itching to test himself against Lancaster.

This pending confrontation pretty much comes to a head in a scene where Lancaster is cooking his meal over a fire in the woods. He spots the young cowboy who evidently is following him and invites him over to the fire to enjoy some food. Finally, during the course of their conversation Lancaster says something like this:

"I know you are itching to try me, to see how good you are with a gun. I know you are a very good shot, maybe better that I am. Maybe you are even faster on the draw than I. But you are a cowboy. You use your six gun to shoot rabbits and snakes, for target practice with bottles and cans and to practice your fast draw. But you have never faced another man in a gunfight, where you could be killed, and you have never killed another man, and that is the difference tween us. I am a killer of men. Plain and simple. That is my edge and that is all the edge I need."

Read between the lines and I suggest that is the difference between a gambler/hustler and a demonstrator on another scale, although I’m sure this will irk Bones to no end.

However I thought this story might be interesting to some on this BB and perhaps turn on a light bulb or two.

Surely, that will aid anybody who doesn't fully understand the differences. Surely, but... there are a few dead bulbs around here. lol

No, it doesn't irk me in the slightest Cag - if only because what you've posted is true.
Your movie analogy is a bit obtuse, but easy to parse.

For the same general sentiment, I prefer "if you have to say you is, you ain't".

Difference between Hustlers/Gamblers and Demonstrators is this....... If you feel the need to frequently visit the gambling spot, you are the latter.

The thing is though, nobody has ever suggested that the Gambling Spot was either intended for, or populated by - hustlers.
There have been a few "real" cheats, or practicing disciples of a specific short con (despite the occasional arguing focused on who "is", and who "ain't") like Top'n'Ball, Memph, DOC, Card Cheat ... and a few others, but they were around only for a relatively short period of time before leaving for reasons known only to them.

This forum seemed only ever intended for folks who liked to discuss things less related to magic, and more related to gambling and hustling with cards and dice.
There was never any indication from the owner of the forum that the Gambling Spot was intended to discuss the most cutting edge hustling and cheating techniques, indeed as Cag frequently points out, nobody here is a professional hustler currently plying their trade and willing to share the most common cheating and hustling techniques as practiced in 2020.

So folks discuss what they know ... some old techniques, some techniques that blend over into demo and sleights with cards and dice, as well as some history and attempts to frame that history in a way that makes for entertaining reading, and hopefully promotes interesting discussion (as opposed to argument and bluster).

Folks get wound up in a couple of ways ... first, in assuming that participants in this forum are in any way claiming to represent themselves as experts in contemporary cheating and hustling practice and technique, and second - in confusing discussion of straight up magic tricks with the general intent of forum to stick with primarily gambling and hustling related topics (demo or otherwise).

But overlaying some sort of intrinsic belief that participants in the Gambling Spot are somehow claiming to be something they're not (simply by participating in the forum) is a complete and utter fabrication, and it's a fabrication that, over time ... many tire of, especially when the reality of the situation is that nobody here is actually portraying themselves as an expert in contemporary (as in last decade or two) cheating and hustling techniques.
Nobody posting to the Gambling Spot is claiming to be anything other than what they actually are, which is simply a participant in an internet forum which focuses very broadly on gambling, hustling, and demonstrating aspects of that subject matter to laymen and other interested parties.

But to portray the Gambling Spot as a group of fundamentally uneducated wannabe's is a complete Straw Man.
Nobody here is claiming proprietary knowledge ... and save the occasional request for proprietary information from somebody new, participants in the Gambling Spot don't make it a habit of even asking for proprietary information ... nobody here wants or asks about anybody elses "secret" hustling techniques.

@Bones: Excellent post of May 29, 2020 above and I agree with everything you said. I fact it is one of the best posts I have read on this forum.

I think a lot of what DOC used to say is BS, but what do I know

A very well-written post, Cag, thank you for sharing! Might clear things up for some of the magicians and would-be hustlers on the forum.

I saved almost all of the videos that DOC shared.

Some of the moves were quite impressive to MY eyes, but then again I imagine that other viewing angles around the table might reveal some of the work.

Well all I can add to this post is one category Cag left out but just mentioned by Steve Forte that now applies to me. Hobbyist. I used to be a hustler/gambler but gave it up several years ago when I got too old.

Sometimes the only difference between a demonstrator and a hustler is which side of the camera he is on.

The difference? One has balls and the rest don't....

Is it?

Cute...but not entirely accurate.

This of course refers to those hobbyists/demonstrators who boast about their prowess, ability, knowledge even though they have never "been there." There is a ton of BS among demonstrators and hobbyists regarding their ability, expertise, what they could do if they really wanted to. Generally, you can tell by what they write and a demonstration of what they show. Usually a demonstration of their ability shows me they have never been there. No matter how skillfully the demonstration performed, it becomes pretty obvious they are simply demonstrators.

The first tell is doing the demonstration on video to begin with. An active pro does not do that nonsense (that is in the province of hobbyists) and the second is the limitation of what they are showing: usually a move in isolation without all the other necessary ingredients that would make it fly and get the money. Or the move is fancy, pretty or skillful looking with an abundance to cuts and shuffles, snaps, pops, flips and extraneous moves, etc., that would wake the dead. In the real world of the gaming tables, art is in the concealment of art. For the demonstrator, art is to be flaunted with all manner of pretty extras and overkill to impress the observer with the practitioner's skill and ability---which actually mean little or nothing at the gaming tables.

However, among actual hustlers, talking with another hustler and looking to work with each other, then they will say and show that "they Is." They have to show that they have the ability to get the money or that their reputation precedes them in that regard. That is their reputation or others vouching for them demonstrate that they have gotten the money.

"If you say you is, you ain't" is more applicable to hobbyists talking to another hobbyist or to layman. Since they are for the most part basically magicians or magician/demonstrators, what they say is considered poetic license and they can lay down whatever BS they want to in order to create the "illusion" about themselves and their persona, i.e., expert gambler, protection expert, foremost gambling authority, confidant of top hustlers worldwide and so on...any nonsense they wish to convey.

"So if you say you is, you ain't" definition does not necessary apply in the hustling community, although quite frankly these guys do not have to boast to solidly their credentials. Their reputation usually precedes.

Cag, you keep saying that it's only braggarts, hobbyists and demonstrators that post in The Gambling Spot claiming to have superior skills and knowledge.
Further, that anybody posting on the Gambling Spot who claims superior knowledge is full of B.S.

Well, on that point amigo, I agree with you 100%.

I don't believe that is what is being said. Rather it is an interpretation of what you think is being said.

No matter, it accomplished the purpose of making the post initially. It got some commentary on this sleepy if not almost dead BB.

Just wanted to wake up some of the dead here.

Cag I think this bb is sleepy is that most are studying Steve Fortes new book.

I think the level of anonymity in the forum is vastly overrated ... and folks should definitely post as if they were posting under their actual names.
The name in question has been posted in this very forum multiple times over the years, and at one point in time, in this very forum, the party was asked outright if they knew "who they were"!

I know there are old timers in the forum (some still here, some having left over the years) who know who I am, and I post as if any one of them might phone me tomorrow to call me out on something I might have said.
Those who believe they're posting in an anonymous vacuum are probably, at some point, going to be in for a surprise.

Bones - "Nobody posting to the Gambling Spot is claiming to be anything other than what they actually are"

you can't be serious with that one.... A few of us have been around for 10 years or more, and have seen all the names go through here. I can only guess one or two of them were claiming to be what they aren't. Maybe its me

I guess if you're counting Blackeagle, then "yeah" ... there are a few folks who have passed through who were claiming to be something they were quite obviously not

But in general terms, I'm not talking about casual visitors to the forum claiming they have a guaranteed dice setting system ... I'm talking about the long time regulars being pretty much exactly what they (we) say we are - the regulars who've been here as long as you and I have been here.
In that crowd, nobody is claiming to be something they're not (which was my point).