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Dannydoyle
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Ron how about a straight answer from you just for a change? HOW MANY COPS do you believe are brutal and killing people of color? What percentage? Just give us a number. Don't give it a lot of qualifier bs nonsense. Just tell us WHAT PERCENTAGE of cops are doing this please.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicalaurie
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Https://www.gq.com/story/how-violent-pol......s-itself

"Policing is a relatively dangerous job, but less deadly than working as a roofer or driving a cab. Garbage collectors are killed at twice the rate of police"
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ron how about a straight answer from you just for a change?


Hey Danny, what about my post elicited that sort of retort?? When have I not given a straight answer? Anyway, what in that post do you disagree with?

By the way, I noticed you didn’t admonish Bobby for not giving a straight answer (or any answer) when I asked him more than once to explain his “especially white cops” comment. Why is that?

Quote:

HOW MANY COPS do you believe are brutal and killing people of color? What percentage? Just give us a number. Don't give it a lot of qualifier bs nonsense. Just tell us WHAT PERCENTAGE of cops are doing this please.


Why that framing? Why “brutal and killing people of color”, as if evil predators are systematically and boldly hunting down their prey? I think that whatever racism exists is a lot more subtle and more nuanced than that. A more accurate framing might be “How many cops are influenced in who they profile/apprehend/restrain by their prejudices? And to what extent does the color of one’s skin dictate how much force to use in any given situation?

But to answer the question as you asked it, I have no idea. I think the number/percentage is quite low, but whatever it is, it’s obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. I think most cops are good and deserve respect. They do a thankless job and we need to recognize that. But we also need to recognize that simply being a minority in this country seems to automatically put you at a disadvantage when it comes to encounters with law enforcement. If you would much rather be white when getting stopped or pulled over for something by a cop (and I think almost everyone would) then you have to reflect on why that’s the case.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Yea OK how about the number of unarmed people of color killed by cops then?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 24, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Https://www.gq.com/story/how-violent-pol......s-itself

"Policing is a relatively dangerous job, but less deadly than working as a roofer or driving a cab. Garbage collectors are killed at twice the rate of police"


Nice straw man.

Being Pope is pretty dangerous as well. Almost 100% die in office. Heck so is Supreme Court Justice.

How many straw men do we need?

Also just to be clear how many roofers are killed by other people on the job as a DIRECT RESULT of being a roofer? ? How about garbage collectors? I mean if you want to make a comparison please at least make it relevant.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea OK how about the number of unarmed people of color killed by cops then?



Good question.

Mapping Police Violence, a crowdsourced database that includes deaths by vehicle, tasering or beating in addition to shootings, estimates 25 police killings of unarmed Black men in 2019.

(obviously, if you include ALL minority killings – not just blacks - then the number would be higher)

Full Article:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fact......2455002/

Also:
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/202......of-color

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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25. 25 is a horrible number. It should be zero without a question.

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?

Also lets look at how many cops are killed in 2019. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/us/2019-o......dex.html

Go ahead and spin this for me if you will.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicalaurie
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It's relevant to indicate that police seem to consider their tasks life threatening at a rate disproportionate to actual threat level. I think that is actually highly relevant. Using excessive force against perceived threat.

I also think much of the public has in the past considered policing generally more dangerous than garbage collection. I know I was somewhat surprised by the reference cited.

And for the garbage collector, some of that danger, of course, comes from the behaviour of others- not stopping their vehicle for the truck, racing around it and hitting the garbage man, for example. Or garbage truck driver backing up and running over pick up guy. Slightly less direct: hazardous wastes tossed in the trash.

Re. cab drivers: "In addition to the inherent risks of collisions on the roadway, taxi drivers also need to worry about potential altercations with their clients — who in most cases are complete strangers. Some 43.3% of workplace deaths for full-time taxi drivers and chauffeurs in 2016 were attributable to violence at the hands of another individual. Half of all deaths were roadway collisions."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car......2500001/
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
25. 25 is a horrible number. It should be zero without a question.

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?


I don’t know. Do you? And why is it relevant? How does that data help the George Floyds, Philando Castiles, Laquan McDonalds, Walter Scotts, Eric Garners, etc. of the world?

Quote:

Also lets look at how many cops are killed in 2019. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/us/2019-o......dex.html

Go ahead and spin this for me if you will.



Why would I try and spin it? I don’t dispute it at all. I’m not arguing with you. I think it’s tragic anytime someone in the line of duty gets killed. One difference though is that policing REQUIRES that one place themselves in precarious situations. Dealing with heated domestic disputes, bank robberies, drug dealers, drunk a***oles, hard core criminals on the lam, etc. are built-in hazards of the job. So we shouldn’t be surprised that a certain percentage of people who sign up for that job tragically get killed. In fact, the job is deemed SO dangerous, that we give them guns! (and rightly so) In fact, we would be surprised if nobody in such a dangerous job ever got killed, right? But when unarmed civilians are getting killed by the very ones who are sworn to protect us it gets our attention (and rightly so).

But I agree with you. 25 is a horrible number and should be as close to zero as possible. I’ll also add that the number of cops that get killed is horrible and should also be zero, although for the reasons stated that is probably unrealistic. Thanks for the link.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 25, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
It's relevant to indicate that police seem to consider their tasks life threatening at a rate disproportionate to actual threat level. I think that is actually highly relevant. Using excessive force against perceived threat.

I also think much of the public has in the past considered policing generally more dangerous than garbage collection. I know I was somewhat surprised by the reference cited.

And for the garbage collector, some of that danger, of course, comes from the behaviour of others- not stopping their vehicle for the truck, racing around it and hitting the garbage man, for example. Or garbage truck driver backing up and running over pick up guy. Slightly less direct: hazardous wastes tossed in the trash.

Re. cab drivers: "In addition to the inherent risks of collisions on the roadway, taxi drivers also need to worry about potential altercations with their clients — who in most cases are complete strangers. Some 43.3% of workplace deaths for full-time taxi drivers and chauffeurs in 2016 were attributable to violence at the hands of another individual. Half of all deaths were roadway collisions."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car......2500001/

No it is just not a comparison for any reason other than to try to mitigate the danger and push an agenda. As Ron points out these people are required to run TO danger. No roofer or garbage collector is. The comparison is ridiculous at best.

Again I ask how many garbage men are targeted simply for three job they do? The comparison is specious at best. Try doing the job for 5 seconds your mind will change. But it also involves the doing the job and then having your every word and action poured over by self appointed experts who have seen an episode of CSI and want to pretend they get it. If you have not done the job you don't.

I can't imagine why anyone does the job any more. 99.99% of cops are great people doing a thankless task. Oh and would show up to defend those tarnishing them the loudest because that's who they are. It is sad it comes to this nonsense.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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If there are too many brutal policemen, too many unemployed and not enough nice trees, then sack the brutal policemen and instead of paying them unemployment benefit, ask them to plant trees and pay them for that.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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magicalaurie
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"Police training needs to go beyond emphasizing the severity of the risks that officers face by taking into account the likelihood of those risks materializing."

"In percentage terms, officers were assaulted in about 0.09 percent of all interactions, were injured in some way in 0.02 percent of interactions, and were feloniously killed in 0.00008 percent of interactions. Adapting officer training to these statistics doesn’t minimize the very real risks that officers face, but it does help put those risks in perspective."

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc....../383681/
Dannydoyle
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Ever been in officer training? I have. THEY DO tell you the HARDEST part of the job is the fact that it is LOOOOONG periods of boredom, interrupted by moments of start terror. Sounds to me they DO emphasize this part of the job. But obviously I have no clue what I am talking about.

Also if the statistics are what you say they are then the amount of interactions that go bad out of those small numbers must be even SMALLER! Only stands to reason doesn't it? So the number of things we are talking about is very small. Thank you for unintentionally proving my point.

And yet again let me stress that 25 is WAY too high a number for unarmed people of color killed. But that number without context, which is how everyone chooses to portray it, is meaningless. For example if 1,000,000 people of color have interactions with cops and 25 are killed unarmed then it is not as big a deal as if 100 have an an interaction and 4 are killed. I hate that these conversations have no context to them ever. They just blame cops because it is cool to do so.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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“The Minneapolis police academy trains young soon-to-be officers for 16 weeks before they're assigned weapons and sent out on the streets as rookie cops. They then spend six months paired with training officers who show them the ropes.

On May 25, two rookie officers, J. Alexander Kueng and Thomas Lane, held down George Floyd's back and legs as their training officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee down on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes.”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-trai......-states/

I6 does not seem enough training but it is much the same here in the UK.

Incidentally, I knew a fellow who ran the police firearms training school here in Birmingham. He had an affair with married women and they were arrested for conspiring to murder her husband. Strangely, the husband paid bent police officers to fix the trial so that she would not go to jail because he still loved her.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Dannydoyle
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Do cops run the courts in the UK?

If that guy was a training officer that is a major problem. He had a load of complaints against him. Plus was involved in more than one shooting.

I don't think he would fit the model of a proper training officer.
Danny Doyle
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tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Jun 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:


Also if the statistics are what you say they are then the amount of interactions that go bad out of those small numbers must be even SMALLER! Only stands to reason doesn't it?


No, I don't think it does.
Dannydoyle
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The universe of cops is FAR smaller than the universe of people of color. So yea it stands to reason big time.

But these little inconvenient truths don't really help the hate cops movement now do they?

Again with the 25 person estimate we are talking about an INCREDIBLY SMALL percentage of people. An incredibly small number of cases that go bad.

The larger problem is that policing has changed, and in the past couple decades not for the better. There used to be what was called a "community based policing" effort. Cops were not in cars, they got INVOLVED in the community they patrolled and protected and served. The beat cops knew 4 things. People, places, the things people do and the times they do them. They did not get suspicious of a black owner of a business taking out the garbage at 3 in the morning because he did it every night. They were part of the community. If something unusual happened to an uninformed person odds are good when he knew those 4 things he knew what was going on.

Take cops OUT of the community they serve and put them in cars that isolate them and it makes things different. Some people the ONLY interaction they have with cops is when something bad has happened. Not a great thing. It can foster an "us vs. them" attitude and it is not healthy.

I think these are the things that are out of balance right now. I think that looking back to this form of police work will go a long way to helping the situation and perception. But the way people all think they just know because they think they know is crazy. There ARE ideas out there that don't include a lot of tarnishing 99.99% of the great people doing that job.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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"Under four presidents, the Feds neglected duty to collect statistics on police killings
Why has the Justice Department failed to follow a law from 1994?"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2......0501002/
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