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tommy
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Ond looter has been shot and killed as a matter of fact.

LAWYERS SAY DEADLY FORCE CAN'T BE USED TO FEND OFF LOOTERS, UNLESS THEY'RE ALSO THREATENING TO KILL ETCETERA.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Right.
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tommy
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Considering all the guns and all the nuts on drugs in all the world, it is surprising that the no policemen have been shot dead in this uprising yet.

The good news is the cop responsible for all this has been charged and his wife is divorcing him in disgust.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
Quote:
I reserve the right to decide what "happiness" means for me, and the "pursuit" of same.


Those looters looked pretty happy to me and appear to have pursuit'ed as well...


Exactly why interpretation is not allowed individually.

As a society we through a process. Always have, always will.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2020, tommy wrote:
Ond looter has been shot and killed as a matter of fact.

LAWYERS SAY DEADLY FORCE CAN'T BE USED TO FEND OFF LOOTERS, UNLESS THEY'RE ALSO THREATENING TO KILL ETCETERA.


Not quite true. The standard is reasonable fear of great bodily injury and an inability to retreat.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
It's not us... it's them.
It's not our guys... but those guys.
It's not me... it's you.


My point is that there isn't any us nor them, ours or theirs, or you or me.

I avoid watching the news. It elevates my blood pressure too much. Unfortunately, I have a Facebook account and have seen the videos. I think when I turn 55 I'll reward myself by leaving FB, but I digress...

When I saw the video of the looters I thought..."If that was my store I would be shooting every looter (even the pregnant woman) and follow them out to their car and redecorate the upholstry..." but, that is the beast in me. *

I would feel justified because the cops failed to stop them and forced my hand to protect (pursuit & happiness) my business and my God given rights. BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

Let me throw in a straw man....

You're walking along in your nice shoes (you decide the style/make) and a kid jumps out with a gun and says "Give me your shoes!" You say "Huh?" the kid then shoots you and takes your shoes.

Too completely different situations right? But in the end, both get killed over a pair of shoes.

I'm not saying you wanted to shoot the looters, nor am I asking. I'm just (poorly) trying to share a revelation.

I have no solution, but there isn't any us... or them...



I appreciate the thought, but I disagree. If you're an arsonist, you're not one of my "us." You're a "them." If your response to disagreement is violence, you're a them. Innocent people's lives are being lost, livelihoods are being destroyed, and the tax bases and infrastructure of some of the areas that need the most help are being decimated and won't recover in a decade. People with serious mental health issues or life-threatening illnesses aren't getting medication, because people are burning drugstores.

It's not about color; I've seen righteously angry African Americans risking their safely to apprehend white rioters and looters and turn them over the police. I saw an African American woman lay into a group of white people in a Mercedes who were passing out bricks and trying to stir up violence. It's not about politics; I prefer people who reasonably disagree with me to violent or even irrational ones who agree.

It's important to recognize that there are different people out there with different goals. There are many people out there nonviolently expressing anger, frustration, hurt. They're an us.

There are many people out there who are just opportunistic looters. They're a them.

There are many people out there who are anarchists or might as well be, and are trying to violently overthrow the system. They're a them.

And there are many people out there with underdeveloped prefrontal cortices who think they're playing or watching a video game and have no concept of consequences. Some will fall on one side of the fence, and some the other.

I saw a woman put herself between a group of men with weapons and a store they were trying to break into, to prevent it from being looted, and I read of another woman arrested for throwing a Molotov cocktail at an occupied police car (both were white, for whatever that's worth). In my book, you'd better believe one of them is an us, and the other is a them.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Animated Puppets
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:



I appreciate the thought, but I disagree...



All valid points if you look at it that way. But what I my post is more about the human condition rather than right or wrong.

Our prisons are full, all across the world there is atrocity after atrocity, and though you nor I would do these things the people that are doing are made of the same 'stardust' as you and I.

If we were to eliminate starvation, unemployment, and provide either opportunity or the basis of a fair share... would we still have crimes, abuse, and atrocities?

My gut reaction is to go the violence route. I don't like that.

I guess my point would be... even though we have all these nifty gadgets to make us more aware and provide gratification... we are confusing that sensation with enlightenment when; deep down, we are still that frightened angry beast.
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
[ we are confusing that sensation with enlightenment when; deep down, we are still that frightened angry beast.


I can agree with a lot of what you have offered,
and "frightened beast" may be accurate. But anger is not a Limbic response or even a reasoned one.

It is trained, no? Where dose the anger or rage come from? Why is it accepted as a substitute for compassion or reason?

Why is it considered OK for people to vent anger in strange ways?

But,back to my original thoughts. I do not see where people are looting or destroying property out of anger or even fear.
They may be using the fear and anger of others as an excuse, but anger is not what drives them to commit crimes.

Anger did to drive the cop to kneel on the neck either. Fear maybe - but fear of what?

I wonder how he would have handled the situation had there been no crowd to perform before? But anger? No.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Animated Puppets
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My anger comment was directed at those who (beasts) are feeling justified in killing a looter, not the looters themselves. As stated earlier they (looters) appear rather happy.

Prosecute them? Absolutely. Sue the city for not responding properly (police)? Sure! But the comments I see on FB are mostly people from the shoot them crowd...

On that note I figured out a way to stop seeing those feeds. I will unfollow everyone and only see post when they tag me. Best way to preserve friendships and family relations.

A lot of bad things have been done with 'Justified' as their reasoning.

I still don't have a fix.
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JoeJoe
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Boston tea party: whose side are you on? The British promising a crackdown on the rioters, or the Americans demanding freedom?

Hmmm....

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
tommy
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What I'm saying to you is this: when you're facing a loaded gun, what's the difference?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:


I appreciate the thought, but I disagree. If you're an arsonist, you're not one of my "us." You're a "them." If your response to disagreement is violence, you're a them. Innocent people's lives are being lost, livelihoods are being destroyed, and the tax bases and infrastructure of some of the areas that need the most help are being decimated and won't recover in a decade. People with serious mental health issues or life-threatening illnesses aren't getting medication, because people are burning drugstores.

It's not about color; I've seen righteously angry African Americans risking their safely to apprehend white rioters and looters and turn them over the police. I saw an African American woman lay into a group of white people in a Mercedes who were passing out bricks and trying to stir up violence. It's not about politics; I prefer people who reasonably disagree with me to violent or even irrational ones who agree.

It's important to recognize that there are different people out there with different goals. There are many people out there nonviolently expressing anger, frustration, hurt. They're an us.

There are many people out there who are just opportunistic looters. They're a them.

There are many people out there who are anarchists or might as well be, and are trying to violently overthrow the system. They're a them.

And there are many people out there with underdeveloped prefrontal cortices who think they're playing or watching a video game and have no concept of consequences. Some will fall on one side of the fence, and some the other.

I saw a woman put herself between a group of men with weapons and a store they were trying to break into, to prevent it from being looted, and I read of another woman arrested for throwing a Molotov cocktail at an occupied police car (both were white, for whatever that's worth). In my book, you'd better believe one of them is an us, and the other is a them.


(re Bold) Not sure what "disagreement" you're referring to. But I don't think the majority of protesters would characterize their actions as a response to a mere disagreement (nor would I). To them it is a response to the ultimate violence that was inflicted on George Floyd. Add to that the long history of unarmed black men killed by cops and it's no surprise that frustrations have reached the boiling point. 'Thoughts and prayers' just won't cut it any more. That being said, wanton rioting, destruction of property, and endangering innocent people is counterproductive, in my opinion. Anyway, good post - thanks Lobo.

Ron
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Dannydoyle
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Is anyone out there taking a position that somehow what happened was anything but wrong?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Is anyone out there taking a position that somehow what happened was anything but wrong?


Apparently the president of the Minneapolis police union, for one:

The president of the Minneapolis police union has written to its members calling George Floyd a “violent criminal”, describing those protesting over his death as terrorists and criticizing the city’s political leadership for not authorizing greater use of force to stop the rioting.

The letter drew a swift rebuke from a former Minneapolis police chief who called it a disgrace.

Lt Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, defended the four officers involved in Floyd’s death, including Derek Chauvin, who kneeled on Floyd’s neck for more than eight minutes in the lead-up to his death on 25 May.


FULL ARTICLE:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020......on-chief

Ron
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Interesting if true.

Sorry but even as a former cop that video is nothing but a murder in progress.

Regardless of his position, riots are not the answer.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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While not justifying the actions in any way. I wonder how much of the actions chosen - and decree of sustained action,
was a result of having a large number of spectators. Was the officer performing for the audience rather than following set procedures.

or, are they trained to over react when folks with cameras are about? There has been a hint that the officers thought the man might be dangerous,
as on crack or something - and therefor acted to "protect" the bystanders. (at least at first to justify the neck press).
However, apparently he was already in the car once - but I may be confused.

Regardless, I would be interested in knowing what the officers a TRAINED to do in various situations,
and to what degree the presence of observes influences choices. Also fear of lawsuits if they are perceived to do something wrong.

From my view, the expectations of both "peace officers" and people casually walking the streets has changed dramatically in recent decades.
How much is fear of injury? How much is fear of lawsuit or adverse publicity? How much is biased reporting for sensationalism?
How much is someones political or religious agenda? I still wave at police officers and make my house(s) available for emergency pit-stops.
I want it to stay that way - but I also won't admonish someone who flips off an officer (fear of being shot by the citizen more than by police)

Yet, I also see three cops cars stop to tell a hitch hiker he can't sleep by the underpass - city, county and state all flexing cop muscles.

I am not sure who is to blame, but feel that less than 50% of people choosing to vote has something to do with it.
If people refuse to take control of their own lives, someone else will - that's for sure.

Yes, I realize some people protesting and even rioting think they are taking control of sorts.
The question is why they gave it away in the first place?

So, Danny, in my usually wordy fashion, the officers were at fault here - but so is a lot of other factors. None of it right.
Everyone want to find someone to blame after the fact. Accountability means accepting control before the fact.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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With all due respect you are starting to swim out of your depth. Nobody trains cops to "over react". In ANY situation. An officer performing a type of "show" for the audience and not controlling their suspect is not a useful public servant.

I am not aware of many departments that allow you to use almost fatal techniques. When training in the PR-24 the body is divided into zones of green, yellow and red. The meanings are fairly obvious. The LAPD eliminated their choke hold long ago as part of training. There is PLENTY of evidence that choke holds turn deadly. It is not even an opinion.

Choking a man who is handcuffed on his face with your knee on his neck is not really a great procedure. Doing it for 9 minutes is even worse. I am going to go ahead and doubt that it is taught. I am not sure but I don't think the penalty for buying cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill is death. He was a big guy with a gainful employment until Covid-19. He offers to get in the car. The officer hears him say he can't breathe. The officer never takes his knee off his neck. He not only is holding him down, he is digging it in. This is not policy ANYWHERE. It is banned by most police departments, and in Minneapolis only if he is actively resisting.

The officer has 17 complaints, and has been in several shootings. No other factors are in play. Not one. None. Sorry. This could have been avoided by following policy.

In reality the crowd was RESTRAINED at the scene! Listen to the people asking the cops to let him up. They are not out of control at all. They are being darn near great citizens. This one is on the shoulders of the cops. The only mitigating factor might be the way they were trained.
Danny Doyle
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tommy
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It seems policemen have now been shot.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06......lis-usa/
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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To be clear by "RESTRAINED" at the scene I mean not being disruptive in the least.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
With all due respect you are starting to swim out of your depth. Nobody trains cops to "over react". In ANY situation. An officer performing a type of "show" for the audience and not controlling their suspect is not a useful public servant.

I am not aware of many departments that allow you to use almost fatal techniques. When training in the PR-24 the body is divided into zones of green, yellow and red. The meanings are fairly obvious. The LAPD eliminated their choke hold long ago as part of training. There is PLENTY of evidence that choke holds turn deadly. It is not even an opinion.

Choking a man who is handcuffed on his face with your knee on his neck is not really a great procedure. Doing it for 9 minutes is even worse. I am going to go ahead and doubt that it is taught. I am not sure but I don't think the penalty for buying cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill is death. He was a big guy with a gainful employment until Covid-19. He offers to get in the car. The officer hears him say he can't breathe. The officer never takes his knee off his neck. He not only is holding him down, he is digging it in. This is not policy ANYWHERE. It is banned by most police departments, and in Minneapolis only if he is actively resisting.

The officer has 17 complaints, and has been in several shootings. No other factors are in play. Not one. None. Sorry. This could have been avoided by following policy.

In reality the crowd was RESTRAINED at the scene! Listen to the people asking the cops to let him up. They are not out of control at all. They are being darn near great citizens. This one is on the shoulders of the cops. The only mitigating factor might be the way they were trained.



Hey Danny...any insights as to what a typical number of complaints is in, say, a 5-year period for an officer in a large city?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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