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Dannydoyle
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Yea this not the time for rhetorical flourishes. Or to parse words and find our feelings.

Murdering innocent people is wrong. Looting and destroying minority owned businesses under the guise of peaceful protest is wrong.

The real problem is AS ALWAYS the issue has been coopted by people with another agenda and peaceful demonstrations have been turned.

Rioting is wrong as is the violence. Murder is wrong. And oddly enough the 4 officers involved have been charged. Now it has to play out.

If EQUALITY is desired the system must be used. Otherwise the goal is something else.

Now the time is to get to training issues and community outreach. Unless three goal is continued unrest.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, funsway wrote:
I thought I made that clear R.S.


No, it wasn't too clear to me. But thanks for the further clarification, funsway.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The real problem is AS ALWAYS the issue has been coopted by people with another agenda and peaceful demonstrations have been turned.

Danny, can you clarify what you mean? I ask because your words from the very beginning appear to always ignore one part of the issue, while blaming the other. Admittedly my perception, so not saying that is what you mean to do. It is rather easy to accidentally use language which leans toward “them not us” and also easy to read into words a “them not us” perspective which is not meant by the author.

When EXACTLY the action being protested against is acted out time and time again across the country, that sure can look like a systemic issue. That sure can look like the norm. But we shouldn’t loose sight that every time there is an accolade of the many peaceful protests going on, that is not just a one sided accomplishment. That is both parts of the equation working as they should. All it takes to ruin that balance is one side or the other to escalate things beyond peaceful.

There are people, organized, coopting peaceful protests for their own, entirely different agendas.

There are also people, apparently organized, coopting peaceful crowd control, for What appears to be their own “violence and blood lust”.

The difference is, one group comes very clearly from outside their target group. The other group comes, very clearly, from within it, protected by it, and at times it appears fostered by it. That gives the appearance of a systemic problem.
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea this not the time for rhetorical flourishes. Or to parse words and find our feelings.


This seems directed to me, so I'll respond (correct me if it wasn't directed at me). How is a simple "?" a "rhetorical flourish"? Or a "parsing of words"?

Anyway, one could argue that now is the perfect time to find out what people are feeling. If not now, then when?


Quote:

If EQUALITY is desired the system must be used.


Sure, but what if the system itself is biased/corrupt?


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea this not the time for rhetorical flourishes. Or to parse words and find our feelings.


This seems directed to me, so I'll respond (correct me if it wasn't directed at me). How is a simple "?" a "rhetorical flourish"? Or a "parsing of words"?

Anyway, one could argue that now is the perfect time to find out what people are feeling. If not now, then when?


Quote:

If EQUALITY is desired the system must be used.


Sure, but what if the system itself is biased/corrupt?


Ron



Nor directed to you sorry.

And if the system is corrupt then we have to watch this play out don't we? Do you propose we just assume it is and not let it work?

Why not see how it plays out? Then IF corruption rears its ugly head we move to fix it. Crazy huh?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The real problem is AS ALWAYS the issue has been coopted by people with another agenda and peaceful demonstrations have been turned.

Danny, can you clarify what you mean? I ask because your words from the very beginning appear to always ignore one part of the issue, while blaming the other. Admittedly my perception, so not saying that is what you mean to do. It is rather easy to accidentally use language which leans toward “them not us” and also easy to read into words a “them not us” perspective which is not meant by the author.

When EXACTLY the action being protested against is acted out time and time again across the country, that sure can look like a systemic issue. That sure can look like the norm. But we shouldn’t loose sight that every time there is an accolade of the many peaceful protests going on, that is not just a one sided accomplishment. That is both parts of the equation working as they should. All it takes to ruin that balance is one side or the other to escalate things beyond peaceful.

There are people, organized, coopting peaceful protests for their own, entirely different agendas.

There are also people, apparently organized, coopting peaceful crowd control, for What appears to be their own “violence and blood lust”.

The difference is, one group comes very clearly from outside their target group. The other group comes, very clearly, from within it, protected by it, and at times it appears fostered by it. That gives the appearance of a systemic problem.


You miss the point. I am not saying that any actions being protested are necessarily wrong. What they are attempting to bring awareness to needs attention.

I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places. In saying that three destruction of minority owned businesses HAPPENS ironically enough in protest of how minorities are treated. And this not how the SYSTEM treats them, this is how the PROTESTERS are treating them.

The people who show up with an alternative agenda then use peaceful protests as cover for violence. When this happens it takes away from the people with very real grievances.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places. In saying that three destruction of minority owned businesses HAPPENS ironically enough in protest of how minorities are treated. And this not how the SYSTEM treats them, this is how the PROTESTERS are treating them.

The people who show up with an alternative agenda then use peaceful protests as cover for violence. When this happens it takes away from the people with very real grievances.

There is nothing “ironic” about it. It is calculated, planned, and executed for that exact purpose. To disrupt a protest of an issue people of color have by creating and the inciting further violence. This not, NOT, protesters generating these actions. This is a force outside the protesters which has come to undermine their peaceful protest.

I see you deftly skipped the point that the violence on the side of the protesters is instigated and fanned by an outside force while the violence on the side of the police is coming from inside the ranks of the police. THAT internal, systemic violence IS what this protest is about. The only irony might be that the police are putting that on full display, though I am cautious of using that word, as it generally is used to refer to humorous things. This topic is not humorous.
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places.


And many of these "planted" bricks claims appear to be false...

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verif......a130b334

and:

https://www.insider.com/were-bricks-plan......k-2020-6

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places. In saying that three destruction of minority owned businesses HAPPENS ironically enough in protest of how minorities are treated. And this not how the SYSTEM treats them, this is how the PROTESTERS are treating them.

The people who show up with an alternative agenda then use peaceful protests as cover for violence. When this happens it takes away from the people with very real grievances.

There is nothing “ironic” about it. It is calculated, planned, and executed for that exact purpose. To disrupt a protest of an issue people of color have by creating and the inciting further violence. This not, NOT, protesters generating these actions. This is a force outside the protesters which has come to undermine their peaceful protest.

I see you deftly skipped the point that the violence on the side of the protesters is instigated and fanned by an outside force while the violence on the side of the police is coming from inside the ranks of the police. THAT internal, systemic violence IS what this protest is about. The only irony might be that the police are putting that on full display, though I am cautious of using that word, as it generally is used to refer to humorous things. This topic is not humorous.


I am sickened to be in the position of "defending" police here BUT one must ask just what they are supposed to do? These protests are being taken over by an outside force. Fine. Gotcha. I NEVER blamed those who peacefully appeal for a redress of grievance. But cops being ambushed, cops being murdered, cops being assaulted and business owners being burned out and beaten. You tell me what SHOULD the cops do? Let it just go? What is your solution?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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The phrase "should do" reads as a dialectal trigger. Should or could ask why the officer(s) on video did not get arrested that night.

Today the NFL took a small step forward by recognizing player protest activity.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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While looking for some answers to "why are police uniforms black rather than blue?" I came across this site and noticed some contrast between what is discussed in the article and the gear advertised at the top of the page.

Maybe folks missed the announcement "Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts." hours before looting was the focus on news networks and then tales of bricks. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/stat......80744704
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
But cops being ambushed, cops being murdered, cops being assaulted and business owners being burned out and beaten. You tell me what SHOULD the cops do? Let it just go? What is your solution?

Danny, you seem very comfortable with the perspective of “isolated events, let the system take care of it”. In the case of cops being murdered (which seems to be getting under reported by your representation) how about you roll with that. Cop murdered. Find the person(s) responsible. Let the system handle it.

NOT charge into peaceful crowds of people smashing about with your shields while firing respiratory inflamants at people so the chicken can cross the road.

NOT shove peaceful senior citizens to the ground such that they strike their head and are knocked unconscious and bleeding on the sidewalk.

NOT lying about that incident to the point it gets inaccurately reported.

NOT making a fake photo op with peaceful protesters and then brutally charging them unprovoked hours later.

Simply find the person(s) responsible for this (without violating the Civil rights Of innocents) and let the legal system handle it.

The police have acted in grossly over violent manners. There are many factors at work contributing to that, no doubt. But they are starting to look like power mad bullies. And yup, that is what the news on one side wants to feed the masses.

Bottom line. There is an air... no, a stench... of vile aggression which has taken over this country. Some of that is coming from within, some from beyond our borders. Until we get THAT under control, until we understand and address that, there will be no peace.
funsway
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From the accuracy of reporting, the original theme of this thread,
several commentary of BAC live this morning focus on cops' cultural mandate never to speak out against another cop,
and that even "good cops" are wrong in allowing abuses to happen.

There seems to be consensus of perception that cops lie regularly and bury evidence to cover up wrong doings,
and that they are trained and encouraged to do so. Some mentioned that rich, white folks have insisted on cops being brutal
and violent against "lesser social types" and are only now outraged that they might be effected.

The 57 cops who resigned over outrage of how their fellow officers were treated opens a new can of worms.

I need more info before forming an opinion, but feel much of the reporting may have an antagonistic bias --
that is, I do not trust the reported reasons for their actions with injected words like gestapo and "following orders" defense.

It was after curfew and these officers were ordered to "clear the square." What methods are allowed and what are excesses?
To the extent they seem "over aggressive," what has led to this behavior being normal or expected?
What do violators of the law have a right to expect by way or response by law enforcement?
Why don't I trust what is being reported by the media?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
But cops being ambushed, cops being murdered, cops being assaulted and business owners being burned out and beaten. You tell me what SHOULD the cops do? Let it just go? What is your solution?

Danny, you seem very comfortable with the perspective of “isolated events, let the system take care of it”. In the case of cops being murdered (which seems to be getting under reported by your representation) how about you roll with that. Cop murdered. Find the person(s) responsible. Let the system handle it.

NOT charge into peaceful crowds of people smashing about with your shields while firing respiratory inflamants at people so the chicken can cross the road.

NOT shove peaceful senior citizens to the ground such that they strike their head and are knocked unconscious and bleeding on the sidewalk.

NOT lying about that incident to the point it gets inaccurately reported.

NOT making a fake photo op with peaceful protesters and then brutally charging them unprovoked hours later.

Simply find the person(s) responsible for this (without violating the Civil rights Of innocents) and let the legal system handle it.

The police have acted in grossly over violent manners. There are many factors at work contributing to that, no doubt. But they are starting to look like power mad bullies. And yup, that is what the news on one side wants to feed the masses.

Bottom line. There is an air... no, a stench... of vile aggression which has taken over this country. Some of that is coming from within, some from beyond our borders. Until we get THAT under control, until we understand and address that, there will be no peace.


The premise is flawed. Show me where ONE cop said he did any of those things because of the others being killed.

The aggression you seem so comfortable with is not from 99.99999% of cops.

You seem determined to justify looting and rioting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Also Tom just tti be REALLY clear what percentage of interactions with law enforcement with people of color do you think are killing black citizens?

Is it an issue? Yea. But let's try to talk about it with statistics and facts. Yea crazy I know.

The media is fanning this fire in predictable form and the defund police calls from pretty mainstream sources are starting. All because of what percentage of interactions?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Bobby Forbes
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What exactly is all this BS about? WHite cops killing a black man? Ever heard of Tony Timpa? didn't think so. He was a white man that was killed by 4 "white" police officers. He was handcuffed and face down with cops kneeling on his back. He couldn't breathe. He eventuall died laying on the ground while cops were laughing and mocking him. He was unconscious for several minutes with the cops still kneeling on his back. Paramedics came and when he was put on the stretcher they told the cops he was dead. THis happened almost a year ago. Stop turning this into a race war. It makes you look stupid and at best, your fueling hatred. Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them. And this is only one example. For every example you find, I can find two of my own..
Dannydoyle
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I guess my point is more that when cops kill anyone it is bad for everyone. Rioting and looting seem to hinder making that point.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The premise is flawed. Show me where ONE cop said he did any of those things because of the others being killed.

The aggression you seem so comfortable with is not from 99.99999% of cops.

You seem determined to justify looting and rioting.


Danny, you have dipped into that mode where you are hallucinating again. I am NOT comfortable with the aggression of the cop mobs. My words are pretty clearly against that. Whatever your hallucination about what I say is, does not make it so.

Want to talk about percentages? Let’s talk about a very telling one.

“Data collected by the Washington Post on the use of lethal force by police officers since 2015 indicate that, relative to the proportion of the population, Blacks are over-represented among all those killed by police. As is evident in the figure below, (looking at the top blue bar) according to the US Census estimates, Blacks made up 12% of the population. However, from 2015 – 2019 they accounted for 26.4% of those that were killed by police under all circumstances. In other words, Blacks were the victims of the lethal use of force by police at nearly twice their rate in the general population. Whites make up the majority of victims of police use of lethal force (50.3%) from 2015 – 2019, BUT they also currently make up the majority of the population (61%). Asians make up about 5% of the US population but just 2% of the victims of the lethal use of force by police. Hispanics make up 18% of the US population and just over 18% of the victims of the use of lethal force by police. Native Americans make up 1% of the US population and 1.7% of the victims of the use of lethal force by police.”

From https://thesocietypages.org/toolbox/poli......-blacks/

While I don’t blindly trust any media source these days, this info has been out and has not been disputed. There are attempts to steer the conversation away from it, attempts to minimize it, and attempts spin it, but it has never been disputed as accurate of the data.

So why is it that blacks might have an experience of being targeted by police?

It is clear when people try to wash away a problem with, “It’s not really that bad.” They even like to throw shade and say, “yeah killing is bad, but it’s not that bad is it?”

If whites were being killed at twice the rate of the percentage of the population they represent there would be tirade against that. Mostly because that would mean only white people are being killed by police. That would be weird wouldn’t it.
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I guess my point is more that when cops kill anyone it is bad for everyone. Rioting and looting seem to hinder making that point.

And again, you are confusing the outside forces coming in to riot and loot, with the peaceful protesters.
Dannydoyle
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Why name calling Tom? YOU said I was pretty comfortable with things I wasn't and all I did was exactly the same thing to YOU in order to see if it could be done without you overreacting. Obviously not.

What cop mobs? What do you mean by that exactly?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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