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Dannydoyle
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This number will vary DRASTICALLY. A police officer doing his job and interacting with the public is a target for nonsense complaints. But there is a ratio of complaints that are investigated that have merit.

What I mean to say is once people learned that a complaint can follow a cop, right or wrong, often they are leveled JUST to get even. I will say 17 seems higher than average.

Most cops, and by most I mean a very large majority which is about 90% never even draw their firearm on duty, much less fire it. Even cops in hot zones don't really fire weapons much. It seems as if in this case this particular cop for whatever reason was around a lot when weapons were fired. I draw no conclusion from this other than to say again it seems higher than average.

I will tell you the following. REGARDLESS of what is being portrayed by the "if it bleeds it leads" crowd, the huge percentage of people who have interactions with law enforcement do not go bad. I am not saying some are not uncomfortable and that there are not problems. There ARE and they should be addressed when they happen. To paint the situation as it is being done is just stupid. This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal".
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal".


Care to clarify what you mean? The record is pretty clear that already this year there have been several unarmed black people brazenly killed by police. I could be mistaken but the death tally over the years seems to be the basis of the current protest. Not “one guy”.
tommy
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I think one needs to look a little higher up the ladder. Who is this policeman’s superior officer, how many policemen is this superior officer in charge of, how many has this group of policemen killed and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Riots seem to be more contagious than the virus. This is what I have been watching over here in Birmingham.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/201......ce-video
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal".


Care to clarify what you mean? The record is pretty clear that already this year there have been several unarmed black people brazenly killed by police. I could be mistaken but the death tally over the years seems to be the basis of the current protest. Not “one guy”.


How many interactions with cops do people of color have yearly and how many are killed?

Yes the number needs to be zero as a goal. But again painting this as "normal" fuels the problem not solves it.

I say this while absolutely unequivocally condemning these officers.

And please don't twist my words. This incident was one guy, or several. I do not in any way imply he is even close to the only one in the country.

Also have there been any unarmed white people killed by cops brazenly this year?
Answer is yes, a lot.

But raw statistics only fuel fear. It seems 24% of those killed by cops are black, while they are 13% of the population. But again without applying spin to induce fear or to justify it is a problem.

Living with the fear of an interaction with authority has to change. The fear is very real.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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Actually that video I had just been watching was old.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Living with the fear of an interaction with authority has to change. The fear is very real.


I thought you had no right to be afraid. (couldn't resist)

Interesting phrase though. Is "fear of an interaction with authority" different from "living with an ...?"

"Fear of authority" is also different from "Fear of interacting" with same.

How one chooses to react to fear and of events "making fears come true" should be a focus of education, religious teachings and even political speech.
Yet, we see reactions to events claimed to be "fear based." Are they? Is prejudice fear based? Perhaps. But shifting to bigotry is a choice not based on fear. (opinion)

Yes, each person should look to the roots of any fear, but also their preparation to deal with it.
Fear is often defined as "False evidence appearing real," but also "The unwillingness to do the work to discover the truth."

We all seem to have some fear of the results of interaction with authority, if not fear of the authority. That is often because the results are unpredictable.

If I am pulled over on the highway, I expect to be asked for drivers license and registration. I expect to learn the reason why I was pulled over. I do not expect trouble,
but am still uneasy any time a person with a gun is talking on a radio about me. No guilt, not fearful, but certainly confused and wary.

If I was black passing through a mostly white town I might have different expectations and some fear or anxiety. TodayI think that is normal. Sad.

Yet, when I was at a jail visiting a friend in need, I over heard the Sheriff instructing his officers.
"Remember, every person out there is guilty of something. Your job is to find out what that is." Yes, I was suddenly very afraid.

I don't "live with that fear," however. I worked to get another man elected in his place.

That said, fear is very real for many today, and they have no idea of how to resolve it, dissipate it or change it.

How is change to happen? Not by politicians. I listen to speeches made in the last days and am more fearful than ever.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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Dannydoyle
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When you are of a color that is killed by authority at a rate far higher than you represent as a segment of the population it creates fear.

Playing word games on the internet and voting because you don't like one attitude from one sheriff isn't change, or at least change they are looking for and society needs.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal".


Care to clarify what you mean? The record is pretty clear that already this year there have been several unarmed black people brazenly killed by police. I could be mistaken but the death tally over the years seems to be the basis of the current protest. Not “one guy”.


Probably a lot fewer than you'd think. More unarmed whites than blacks are killed by police, but I'm guessing you can't name any of them. When adjusted for population, on a per capita basis, it's true that it's more blacks than whites, but probably to a lesser extent than most people who haven't looked at the numbers would guess, and also probably way fewer (as a raw number total) than most people would guess. It wasn't an isolated incident, but Danny's quite correct that it's hardly the norm, either.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
And please don't twist my words. This incident was one guy, or several. I do not in any way imply he is even close to the only one in the country.

A. I’m not twisting your words. I’m asking a question. Don’t read into it anything more than that.
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
on a per capita basis, it's true that it's more blacks than whites.

You just obliterated your own attempt to minimize the outrage over the repeated and now very public execution of blacks at the hands of police.

As Danny has admitted, these killings need to be stopped. As do all killings of unarmed people by our law enforcement.

Those who use language and statistics to minimize the very real perspective of the black community appear to show a lack of concern for that community and indeed for the problem itself.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
on a per capita basis, it's true that it's more blacks than whites.

You just obliterated your own attempt to minimize the outrage over the repeated and now very public execution of blacks at the hands of police.

As Danny has admitted, these killings need to be stopped. As do all killings of unarmed people by our law enforcement.

Those who use language and statistics to minimize the very real perspective of the black community appear to show a lack of concern for that community and indeed for the problem itself.


I'm sorry if facts get in the way of the narrative of your agenda. It's ironic that this post immediately follows one of your asking that Danny not twist your words.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I'm sorry if facts get in the way of the narrative of your agenda. It's ironic that this post immediately follows one of your asking that Danny not twist your words.


Well, those are your facts and your words. You posted them. They undermine your agenda. And I didn’t ask Danny to stop twisting my words. Go back and read what I ACTUALLY said.

Nothing ironic about it. Ya see, irony is Danny (apparently) jumping to the conclusion I was twisting his words. It is his favorite dance. But it is clear for all to see, I just asked a question. But it’s all good, Danny and I have some history, so I don’t blame him jumping right on the defensive from a simple question.
tommy
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What if George Floyd told the cops that he had the virus and started spitting at them, then would the cops actions be regarded as self-defence?

Do you or do you not believe an accused is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty?

Are the protesters acting like a lynch mob?

Do protesters want justice and what is that?

Can this accused cop get a fair trial?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I'm sorry if facts get in the way of the narrative of your agenda. It's ironic that this post immediately follows one of your asking that Danny not twist your words.


Well, those are your facts and your words. You posted them. They undermine your agenda.


No, they don't. They enhance my agenda. Because my agenda is simply the truth. I hope that even those who disagree with me strongly here would recognize that I wouldn't be stupid enough to cite that per capita figure if my agenda were as you claimed.



Quote:
And I didn’t ask Danny to stop twisting my words. Go back and read what I ACTUALLY said.


Mea culpa; my misreading. Bummer. I love irony.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
lynnef
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The manner of killing George Floyd was both horrific and symbolic. I heard a 19 year old Black student speaker in Oakland compare it to the yoking of necks of runaway slaves. The march in Oakland on Monday specifically announced it did not condone and it would distance itself from any violence or looting; but at the same time all speakers took the attitude that racism had to go. And that BLACK LIVES MATTER! There was an 8pm curfew; YET at 7:40pm the police shot teargas into the peaceful protest!!! Lynn
Dannydoyle
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All lives can't matter until they matter equally. It is sort of clear that there is still work to do on this front.

Violence helps nothing.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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It is unfortunate that the race issues and violence issues are so commingled (back to my reporting theme)

a headline was briefly posted today : California: Vallejo police kill unarmed 22 year old." Tragic. The police were in their car and the boy kneeling with hands in air.

Notice there is no mention of color or race. We therefore know he was not black./colored.
You probably have to search to find this report. It certainly won't be headline for days and no one seems to be rioting as a result.

So, are folks protecting against police misconduct. Is the killing of a young man cause for concern (any man)

I agree with Danny's "until they matter equally." Yet it seems in the media that the death of a back man is more important than that of a non-black.

It also suggests that in the future when no mention of race is in ANY headline, we will still have headlines of people being killed -- by police, rioters and your neighbor.

If violence helps nothing, why is it the most consistent message in history? It is easier to steal than work.
It is OK to kill a person who stands in the way of your plan. It is Ok to loot under the guise of protesting.
Perhaps people don't want "help - just more bobbles and trinkets and whatever someone else has first.

When I see a young man approaching me on a street. I am not fearful because of the color of his skin. (don't assume any color)
I might be wary because of a bulge in his pocket or smoke rising from a building behind him.
I would become alarmed though, if he wears expensive sports shoes and gold jewelry with otherwise shabby clothes and a hungry glaze in his eyes.

But, I would become afraid and hide when six police cars arrive. Soon bullets will be flying everywhere and they are color blind.
Yup, before even a call out to this young man, the barrier cars bristled with shot guns, rifles and handguns. No 'peace officer" has an empty hand.

Six cars? 14 officers? All armed and ready against a single man standing alone in the street?

Now it is OK to guess the color of his skin.

I am more concerned over the training of these officers and their directed "standard procedures."

Did the radio call mention the color of this man's skin, or is every single person on the street to expect such a response.

The evening news report did mention a "response to a suspicious fire with no arrests being made." At least they did not kill him.
If they had shot him and I was discovered as a witness ...

Am I afraid of the police? No. Do I feel they must be armed in this country? Yes.

But, I am fearful in a society where pulling a gun is the first reaction to every situation,
and half of the available police force responds to a "suspicion call."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
R.S.
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2020, funsway wrote:


But, I would become afraid and hide when six police cars arrive.



Quote:
Am I afraid of the police? No.


?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
funsway
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I thought I made that clear R.S. - it is not fear of police, or the concept of police in our society.

My concern is the apparent trained or directed over-response, and "guns drawn" approach to every situation.

to me, this means that the officers are operating out of fear themselves - meaning an emotional response is more likely that a reasoned one.
I am afraid of their fear, not that they are police. I would react the same if pick-up trucks of civilians carrying guns arrived instead.

I would hide from the expected random bullets, not to hide form the police.

Why are police today trained to react in this manner? How much of that is related to racial profiling or "neighborhood" bias?
How much is that some bully types are drawn to law enforcement? How much is because of sensational mews reporting?

No answers - just questions I used to ask and will ask tomorrow.

I am not afraid of guns either, but wary of the ability of that weapon to cause death driven by emotion or accident more than reason.
When I see a lot of guns in the hands of any group I do not want to be there.

Maybe "being afraid" is no the best terminology. Fear is based on assumptions. I know that police will often over-react and have gun in hand most readily.
Therefore, I stay home more and avoid crowds and "popular spots." That is not fear, but is related to being aware of volatile situations.

I am fearful of the future of our society when such situation seem to be on the increase.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
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