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Dannydoyle
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To be fair if you watch long enough you notice another problem erupting. One cop talks into his radio, presumably to call for help, though I make an assumption there. So it does seem as if follow up might have happened.

It is unfortunate. But it was the stumble that got him, not the blow. As a matter of fact I'm not sure I even saw a blow struck.

Still and all seems as if it could have been handled better, and we don't know the tone with which the man was speaking, and what he was saying and what HIS goal was. So a lot of assumptions here by many.

I am still interested in the 'orders' they were following.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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For what it's worth, Martin Gugino was a member of the Catholic Workers movement. They are pacifists. I've marched with folks from that group in the past and they are the mildest of the mild.

From Wikipedia: "The Catholic Worker Movement started with the Catholic Worker newspaper, created by Dorothy Day to advance Catholic social teaching and stake out a neutral, Christian pacifist position in the war-torn 1930s."
Dannydoyle
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I would have not guessed pacifism from his body language.

Mind you no justification from me. I still say it was unfortunate and could have perhaps been handled differently.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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The Police Department first claimed that the old man “tripped and fell,” which is obviously a description at direct odds with the video. The video, then, not only shows the police assaulting the old man but also how dishonest the police have been about it. The policemen in question are now facing charges of assault; they are lucky not to be also facing charges of perverting the course of justice. Hundreds of policemen are supporting their lying cowardly colleagues outside the courtroom, wearing tee-shirts that said “BPD Strong.” Is that is ironic?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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When you recruit police from former (combat) military...

Protect and Serve morphs into Sweep and Destroy...
*Yawn*
landmark
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Quote:
When you recruit police from former (combat) military...


This. And moreover, the ongoing militarization of police weaponry and training.

The police force should not be conceived as an occupying army.
funsway
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For me, the action of the "pushing" is at least understandable based on training and orders to clear the courtyard of curfew violators.
It was excessive and unnecessary, but consistent with any prior military type training and posturing. Bad, but understandable.

What is terrible is their complete disregard for the actions resulting in a bleeding man on the ground.
It seems they did not consider the body to be a person, just a piece of little to be stepped over. Help? Why bother!

Thus, it seems the deeper problems is that police approaching a crown do not see "people" at all - just objects to be forced about.
This "dehumanizing" the enemy is part of military training, even making "killing" a natural and expected outcome of no ethical concern.

The problem of supplying excess military equipment to local police forces may have been the "mental vermin" lucking inside.

When you see an approaching stranger one's first thought should never be "threat" or "object" - or even of color or nationality or gender.
Anything less than "person" is wrong. Yes, I am a crazy dreamer.

Any training for a "peace officer" that does not see "person first" is misguided and eventually dangerous.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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tommy
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Well.there is nothing new about the police ganging up and cowardly assaulting folks and then lying about it; they have been doing this sort of stuff ever since they were invented. The difference today is that everybody on the street has a video camera, the internet and the whole world is watching some of it. The police will carry on and all folks will get is censored, in one way or another.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
When you recruit police from former (combat) military...


This. And moreover, the ongoing militarization of police weaponry and training.

The police force should not be conceived as an occupying army.


Yea no.

In the very specific case of rioting the opposition IS ACTING as an army.

Regardless of the rhetorical flourishes one wants to apply it shows only how little you know about the army and police tactics.

Again easy to preach from the couch. But when we are talking about a very small fraction of encounters this sort of painting police as bad is going to lead to trouble.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Danny, why is it that any argument you don't prefer is written of with banal phrases like "rhetorical flourish" and never answered,
while you issue opinions as "normative fact" like "when we are talking about." What is your motivation to offer an opinion like
rioters acting like an army. That analogy is not only false but commits several logical fallacies. Only you get to use rhetorical devices, right?
I was in the military too, disabled by officer stupidity rather than combat. I was trained to blindly kill on orders,
and to treat the alleged enemy as non-persons. The problem is not "army" - it is "military" and not the same at all. Don't equivocate.

I have also learned that whenever you say "we" it probably does not include me.

I have offered several real-life stories about inappropriate actions by police over the years. You have replied to none of these.

They were not offered as "painting police as bad" and you don't get to pretend that they are.
They do explain that my opinions about actions by police are based on personal experience more real that any pontification by you.
Yet, in spite of dozens of such personal experiences, I still respect police in general. Why?
Because I also have dozens of good stories about encounters with police that I tell regularly.

How are these stories "going to lead to trouble?" Why do you consider truth to be bad?

The difference, of course, is that the bad actions can lead to death or victimization, or a climate of fear and distrust.

You have offered some interesting thoughts, Danny, on several threads. Why not just offer these opinions without any need
to put someone else down or play games with their opinions? Just offer the facts.

We'all are intelligent enough to sort out kernel from chaff. As you say above, "so easy to preach." Why not stop?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, funsway wrote:
Danny, why is it that any argument you don't prefer is written of with banal phrases like "rhetorical flourish" and never answered,
while you issue opinions as "normative fact" like "when we are talking about." What is your motivation to offer an opinion like
rioters acting like an army. That analogy is not only false but commits several logical fallacies. Only you get to use rhetorical devices, right?
I was in the military too, disabled by officer stupidity rather than combat. I was trained to blindly kill on orders,
and to treat the alleged enemy as non-persons. The problem is not "army" - it is "military" and not the same at all. Don't equivocate.

I have also learned that whenever you say "we" it probably does not include me.

I have offered several real-life stories about inappropriate actions by police over the years. You have replied to none of these.

They were not offered as "painting police as bad" and you don't get to pretend that they are.
They do explain that my opinions about actions by police are based on personal experience more real that any pontification by you.
Yet, in spite of dozens of such personal experiences, I still respect police in general. Why?
Because I also have dozens of good stories about encounters with police that I tell regularly.

How are these stories "going to lead to trouble?" Why do you consider truth to be bad?

The difference, of course, is that the bad actions can lead to death or victimization, or a climate of fear and distrust.

You have offered some interesting thoughts, Danny, on several threads. Why not just offer these opinions without any need
to put someone else down or play games with their opinions? Just offer the facts.

We'all are intelligent enough to sort out kernel from chaff. As you say above, "so easy to preach." Why not stop?


OK seriously you don't get to tell me what to write and how to write it. You do you and I'll do me is that OK with you? YOU are the one trying to play games with MY opinions so really if you want it to stop start there. NOBODY trains cops to think of others as "non persons". Cops are actually NOT trained only to kill without a thought. OOPS analogy falls apart doesn't it?

And don't give me this nonsense about "army" vs "military" and pretend that is what is being discussed. It is not. Sorry. Playing your little word games on the internet is no substitute for experience sorry.

Have you ever been in a riot? I have. Have you ever tried stopping one? I have twice. Once with people I didn't share a language with. I will tell you from BOTH sides of this equation that a "hive mind" or... wait for it... MOB MENTALITY takes over! It has several names but it is very real and believe it or not sociological science does not have adequate answers as to why it does especially when it involves violence.

The mob starts to act like a military unit. (When there are those involved just to stir up this very thing, it is worse.) One person acting out can not turn over a car, but several can and do. By definition this is a unit. The sort of destruction a mob can cause can not happen WITHOUT a sort of command structure. Leaders emerge, people get swept up in the moment, inhibitions go away and it is a spiral. DON'T TELL ME it is not as if you are facing an army if you have not experienced it. If you don't deal with it as a 'group' as opposed to a person you will fail and be hurt badly. Oh and the HUGE percentage of cops are not trained to deal with this sort of thing. They have smaller units that can, but when it is widespread the huge percentage have never dealt with it or thought of it since the academy. Look at how the mobs will "surge forward" and retreat and all that goes on. It IS a military unit. And with people leaving pallets of bricks and incendiary devices it is an armed force now isn't it?

Oh and when I said "we" it was in reference to the number of encounters going bad being a very small percentage. So since you are not included in that please offer us some "facts" as to what percentage of encounters we are talking about please.

It is ironic truly how you tell me I don't "get do do..." and in the same post you spend the huge majority doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT ME DOING! How about a little practice of your preaching for a little while Ken?

There is a concentrated movement to paint all police as bad whether you admit it or not. The "defund the police" folks have some very mainstream support. Yea if you can't see how that road will lead to trouble I can't help you at all. (Once again don't play games with my opinions, as you accuse me of doing thank you.) I NEVER SAID TRUTH WAS BAD, and you don't get to pretend I even implied it. Nonsense and you should apologize for even hinting I said it was.

And Ken the TRUTH is that fanning these flames as some media outlets are HAS led to death and destruction.

See the thing about a "mob mentality" is it can be EASILY coopted. It has been. Now the REALLY scary thing about a "mob mentality" is that when you already have some very real grievances, which the protesters DO, it is even easier to lead you down the path to violence. This is the sad part. There are some very real things that can and should be addressed. BUT when people gather to protest according to their First Amendment privilege and others show up to do nothing BUT cause chaos it makes those protesting in good conscious lose their point. People INCORRECTLY will just say it is all the protesters, and then the situation gets worse instead of getting better.

All this to say I still don't think he should have pushed the guy! He didn't seem to be a major threat, but I didn't get to hear his tone or what was said or see it from that perspective. I think there might have been a better way to go about it.

I am curious as to what "orders" they were following. Seems relevant.

I saw an interesting statement from Floyd's lawyer. "We don't want to be policed and others get served and protected". Wow. Not a bad way to put it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Setting aside some silliness, you have presented some reasoned statements here. I knew you had it in you. Thanks.

but, as you think pointing out fallacies is "word games" there is no place to go.

You say a mob starts acting like a military unit. How? When?
Do they have a recognized leader and clear objective? Do they have a chain of command? Do they have planned supply lines and trained replacements?

This is not to say a mob cannot rally around a leader or be steered towards an objective if that is what you mean,
but they dissipate or change to a new objective or leader at a whim - no unification and certainly not military in form or congruency.

I was referring to military training, of course, rather than general police training, but
an interview with that training consultant (ex-West Point trainer) revealed very specific "prepare to kill" attitude
and never considering the target as human. The cop who killed Floyd went through this advanced training.

Police departments recruit many ex-military. Many departments look for those experienced skills.
You get what you pay for, I guess. But cop training should focus on changing that military attitude to one of "protect and serve," right?

Does it? Really asking. Does any police training for ex-military recruits focus on de-militarizing the conditioning?
Or are they first in line for the anti-riot squads?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
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No cop is ever taught people are not human. Because even with all the crap thrown at them, they risk their lives to defend yours. They are gunmen, they make mistakes, they have their own baggage.

Oh and obviously you know little about mobs. The do rally, they do change objectives and do have leaders. Please stop with the silly nonsense about supply lines. It diminishes your point.

Cops serve, military fights. If you can't see the difference I can't say it any other way.

What "recruiting " do you believe police departments do and how do you think they do it exactly?

Also police training does not center on reprogramming anyone. It centers on behavior they want. As for riot squads or what ever you want to call them (Every department had their own name for them.) they don't really exist like you seem to think. Not many riots in case you have not paid attention. When wad the last large scale riots happening? So having guys sitting around waiting is not cost effective.

I think you may be operating with a few misconceptions.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, funsway wrote:
Setting aside some silliness, you have presented some reasoned statements here. I knew you had it in you. Thanks.

Please stop with the condescending attitude. It is why people react to you the they do. Or more accurately the reason I do.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Strange, I was serious about my compliment to your change in manner of presenting information.

I can consider your arguments when presented that way.

That you see "condescending" is a personal problem you must deal with. I don't have any such attitude or intent.

No matter, the idea that you feel any need to "react to me" at all is even stranger.

As requested previously, why not just present your idea on a subject with no reference to any other person at all.
Just ignore me if you so choose.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
tommy
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I was sort of in a riot once by accident; it just broke out all around me when I happened to be in the city centre one day. It was very well-organized, with leaders, chains of command and all that. I would say they were like an army. The looters were not hurting anybody, so I just watched it going on, with a baby in my arms actually.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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landmark
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Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
When you recruit police from former (combat) military...


This. And moreover, the ongoing militarization of police weaponry and training.

The police force should not be conceived as an occupying army.


Yea no.

In the very specific case of rioting the opposition IS ACTING as an army.

Regardless of the rhetorical flourishes one wants to apply it shows only how little you know about the army and police tactics.

Again easy to preach from the couch. But when we are talking about a very small fraction of encounters this sort of painting police as bad is going to lead to trouble.


My post was not about painting police as bad. I was pointing out a fact, not an opinion: the increasing militarization of weaponry and training of police forces across the country in the last two decades. This is well documented.

As for the couch--I've been on the other side of the line quite a bit myself through the decades, and I can tell you from where I stand, the difference over the years in policing is noticeable. Certain things have remained the same, but others are quite different.
tommy
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My daughter went on the march in Birmingham. She said they were all asked to hold up an arm for minutes, is silence, outside the police station and it seemed to go on and on forever. It was her first protest.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 7, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
When you recruit police from former (combat) military...


This. And moreover, the ongoing militarization of police weaponry and training.

The police force should not be conceived as an occupying army.


Yea no.

In the very specific case of rioting the opposition IS ACTING as an army.

Regardless of the rhetorical flourishes one wants to apply it shows only how little you know about the army and police tactics.

Again easy to preach from the couch. But when we are talking about a very small fraction of encounters this sort of painting police as bad is going to lead to trouble.


My post was not about painting police as bad. I was pointing out a fact, not an opinion: the increasing militarization of weaponry and training of police forces across the country in the last two decades. This is well documented.

As for the couch--I've been on the other side of the line quite a bit myself through the decades, and I can tell you from where I stand, the difference over the years in policing is noticeable. Certain things have remained the same, but others are quite different.

Odd I thought it was change you were looking for.

Yea things change and I'm telling you flat out they have gotten better.

Now I have some questions.

How large of a percentage of encounters are murder of unarmed black men? The word genocide gets thrown around in this situation and I'm curious as to what you believe reality is?

Can a white officer make a bad decision NOT based on race when dealing with a person of color?

Can an officer just be a bad person without being a representative of every cop, and by extension their attitude?

Just how close to zero must we get the number of incidents before they are not every cops fault?

Is rioting and looting a proper response? Not an "understandable" one, a proper one.

That is just a few things that if you want to have an honest discussion should be part of it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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The master gets hs butler to do the dirty work; essentially by hinting as opposed to giving clear unequivocal orders. The butler does the job out of loyalty and does not rat if caught. Even if the butler rats, the master can say, that silly butler misunderstood what I meant. As it is with butlers and masters, so it is with the lower and higher ranks of the police. “Right boys it is no more Mr nice guy.” Know what I mean, know what I mean, nudge, nudge, know what I mean, say no more.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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