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Dannydoyle
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Right and just so everyone believes that then nothing is political.

Again this used to be a refuge from all that. Bringing it in here is uncool.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Kaliix
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If you want to continue talking about masks, you should start a thread over in the "Not very magical, still...". You can start it by listing all the RCT that support the idea that a cloth mask is effective. (Here's a hint, you won't find any, but you will find a bunch that find cloth masks ineffective)


Quote:
On Jul 12, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote:
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Dannydoyle
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Anyone who has ever sanded drywall with a cloth mask can attest to how ineffective they really can be. Sort of like using a chain link fence to stop mosquitoes.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
imgic
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
TheMightyRicardo
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Quote:
On Jul 12, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
If you want to continue talking about masks, you should start a thread over in the "Not very magical, still...". You can start it by listing all the RCT that support the idea that a cloth mask is effective. (Here's a hint, you won't find any, but you will find a bunch that find cloth masks ineffective)


Quote:
On Jul 12, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote:
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick


I have to differ, Kalix. Table Hoppers and Party Strollers are heavily affected by the spread of this virus. Getting it under control is very appropriate for this forum. Bars, restaurants, birthday parties and conventions will be among the last things to normalize enough to support live magic. The faster we beat this thing, the better for everyone.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 12, 2020, imgic wrote:
Bill Nye explains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0UclAmrhVI

And this explains ol Bill.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/why......cientist

"He has an undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering, pursued stand-up comedy while working for Boeing and originally invented the bow-tied “science guy” persona as a comic bit."

He is a known political partisan. But that is OK if you agree with him, in which case he is simply telling the truth LOL. LOVE that this place is now political. Oh wait, I mean the other thing.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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Years ago Bill had a regular TV show called "Bill Nye The Science Guy" in which he promoted Science Education. I enjoyed watching the series. He is much the science enthusiast. Nowadays I see scientists being discredited by anti-science groups like "Flat-earthers" and "Anti-vaxxers". Let's hope that medical professionals fighting this virus scientifically are allowed to lead the battle.
Dannydoyle
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Only problem with your point is that SCIENTISTS are his laegest critics not odd groups as you seem to want to portray.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Also why does everyone portray people who simply disagree as lunatic fringe groups? It doesn't strengthen your argument to do so.

Again I miss when politics didn't permeate this place.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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One of the strengths of science is that anyone is free to challenge any scientific statement, and if they have the evidence and logic, they may overturn it. It is almost certain that there will be discoveries in the future that overturn present beliefs. The problem is these "odd groups" you mention that make scientifically dubious claims.
In fact I must confess that I belong to one of these odd groups. I can pull silks out of thin air. Explain that Bill Nye.
Kaliix
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Bill Nye's explanations are his opinion and they are wrong. It is an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. Any claim that cloth facemasks can prevent the wearer from transmitting or catching Covid-19 needs to be proven with Randomized Controlled Trials (RCT), as it is not only Federal law, but RCT are considered the gold standard of research claims. I can cite ten RCT minimum that found cloth masks to be ineffective. You will not be able to find any because I have looked extensively and ALL I keep finding is more evidence that cloth facemasks don't work.

I don't care what you believe, I care what you can prove. I have plenty of the right kind of proof for what I believe so again if you can just show me ONE RCT that supports the hypothesis that cloth facemasks are effective at filtering 0.1 micron virus particles, I'm more than willing to read it. Otherwise, yours is an opinion decidedly lacking in proof.

I should just create the thread myself but...

Quote:
On Jul 13, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 12, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
If you want to continue talking about masks, you should start a thread over in the "Not very magical, still...". You can start it by listing all the RCT that support the idea that a cloth mask is effective. (Here's a hint, you won't find any, but you will find a bunch that find cloth masks ineffective)


Quote:
On Jul 12, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote:
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick


I have to differ, Kalix. Table Hoppers and Party Strollers are heavily affected by the spread of this virus. Getting it under control is very appropriate for this forum. Bars, restaurants, birthday parties and conventions will be among the last things to normalize enough to support live magic. The faster we beat this thing, the better for everyone.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
TheMightyRicardo
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I have to differ again, Kaliix. In practice, opinions do matter. Even if you are correct that face masks don't work, I would put up with the inconvenience of wearing a mask if a good number of the people around me believed I was protecting them, and also because a lot of stores and businesses would not let me in without a mask. Yes, opinions = politics.
Since you have all the proof you need, would you refuse to wear a mask in public?
imgic
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The virus is 0.1 micron but outside a lab, the virus is bonded to something...like aerosolized water droplets that are emitted by coughing, sneezing, or talking Cloth stop or hinder the spread of these droplets.

Masks work.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 13, 2020, imgic wrote:
The virus is 0.1 micron but outside a lab, the virus is bonded to something...like aerosolized water droplets that are emitted by coughing, sneezing, or talking Cloth stop or hinder the spread of these droplets.

Masks work.


I guess he was asking for the study more than just your own conclusions and declarative statement.

You could be right, I don't know.

But what happens with all these droplets trapped in the mask exactly?

And maybe, just maybe they shouldn't lie to us about it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ekgdoc
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Quote:
On Jul 13, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
Any claim that cloth facemasks can prevent the wearer from transmitting or catching Covid-19 needs to be proven with Randomized Controlled Trials (RCT), as it is not only Federal law, but RCT are considered the gold standard of research claims.


This statement is incorrect on several levels. First, the statement implies that any public health recommendation, in this case wearing a face mask, must be proven with an RCT. While having such an RCT would be nice, it is not a requirement. Think condom use and HIV. There are no supporting RCTs. Second, Federal law (FDA approval) does not require that all medical claims be "proven" with RCTs. Indeed, medical claims are frequently approved by the FDA without an RCT being done. The context of what the claim is and what the supporting evidence is will determine whether an RCT is required.

Your point regarding appeal to authority being a logical fallacy (since the authority could be wrong) also applies to Randomized Controlled Trials, since any RCT could be wrong. Even so, I'm wearing a face mask when I am inside a public environment. I recommend others do the same. And, when the time is right, don't forget to wear a condom.

David M.
Dannydoyle
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I always wear a condom in a public environment. Especially if I'm sharing needles.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Count Hatrick
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Thanks Dannydoyle - made me smile.

I still think the important question for us performers is what would make our audience feel OK. If you're in a space where face masks are expected, then you should wear one whether effective or not. It's not about us, it's about the Audience.
Dannydoyle
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I'm doubting much magic in happening in places that require face mask.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 13, 2020, Count Hatrick wrote:
Thanks Dannydoyle - made me smile.

I still think the important question for us performers is what would make our audience feel OK. If you're in a space where face masks are expected, then you should wear one whether effective or not. It's not about us, it's about the Audience.


I just get so tired of these stupid debates. Everyone searches for things that prove beyond doubt they are right and then take a morally superior position and call everyone else dumb names like Anti Vaxers if they dare to disagree or even worse think for themselves.

Meanwhile NOT ONE person has ever actually changed their mind because of one of these stupid threads!

This section actually used to be relatively free from all that bs and I don't see any reason to bring that nonsense here. It is nothing but toxic nonsense.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Kaliix
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I claim that declaring that a surgical facemask (or any cloth facemask) will prevent the wearer from contracting Covid-19 would be subject to RCT. Nothing you have stated disproves that. I don't specifically know if that is the case, but I'd be willing to bet it is.

You do not understand what an appeal to authority is if you call citing Randomized Controlled Trials as an example of it.

Your dismissal of the need for evidence comes as no surprise considering you have none. Again, I can show you TEN RCT studies done on the wearing of cloth facemasks and NONE of them show that wearing cloth face masks are effective at filtering influenza particles. One also needs to ignore the evidence that wearing a facemask is not a neutral act and that if specific mask protocols are not followed, it can make infections more likely, not less.

Your declarative statement that facemasks are effective at filtering Covid-19 particles puts the burden of proof on you to prove your argument. You again are shown to have none. Believe what you want, but before you require me to do something stupidly ineffective, I require proof that what you are requiring works. You have no proof because masks, in general, don't work and the science proves it.

Quote:
On Jul 13, 2020, ekgdoc wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 13, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
Any claim that cloth facemasks can prevent the wearer from transmitting or catching Covid-19 needs to be proven with Randomized Controlled Trials (RCT), as it is not only Federal law, but RCT are considered the gold standard of research claims.


This statement is incorrect on several levels. First, the statement implies that any public health recommendation, in this case wearing a face mask, must be proven with an RCT. While having such an RCT would be nice, it is not a requirement. Think condom use and HIV. There are no supporting RCTs. Second, Federal law (FDA approval) does not require that all medical claims be "proven" with RCTs. Indeed, medical claims are frequently approved by the FDA without an RCT being done. The context of what the claim is and what the supporting evidence is will determine whether an RCT is required.

Your point regarding appeal to authority being a logical fallacy (since the authority could be wrong) also applies to Randomized Controlled Trials, since any RCT could be wrong. Even so, I'm wearing a face mask when I am inside a public environment. I recommend others do the same. And, when the time is right, don't forget to wear a condom.

David M.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
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