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Dannydoyle
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Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow.


Hi Danny, Find out your own information, since so are so concerned about being lied to. By the way, why would I explain anything about South Dakota? I have never been there. Get your trusted sources and find out yourself. Let's get back to the point of this thread.
ekgdoc
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Quote:
On Jul 14, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
I claim that declaring that a surgical facemask (or any cloth facemask) will prevent the wearer from contracting Covid-19 would be subject to RCT. Nothing you have stated disproves that. I don't specifically know if that is the case, but I'd be willing to bet it is.

You do not understand what an appeal to authority is if you call citing Randomized Controlled Trials as an example of it.

Your dismissal of the need for evidence comes as no surprise considering you have none...


Kaliix,

Thanks for your response. I have just a few comments.

If a COMPANY wanted to claim that the face mask they manufacture prevents Covid infection, they might need to do an RCT. Such a company would talk to people at the FDA to find out what type of study the FDA would require for the type of claim to be made. For example, if said company could demonstrate through basic benchwork that their mask filters particles smaller than the Covid virus, then the FDA might approve the claim without any clinical studies. (I've run clinical trials and have presented to the FDA. I know the game.)

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy only because the authority might be wrong. RCTs can also be wrong. In the right context, it might be better to trust the right authority over of the results of a poorly executed RCT. I did not mean anything more than that. I think we can agree that RCTs are the gold standard of most clinical research.

I did not dismiss the need for evidence in making public health recommendations. The more evidence the better. (That's the argument for more testing.) I could site evidence supporting the wearing of masks, but I come to the Magic Café to relax. If you go to PubMed and search for "face mask covid", you'll find dozens and dozens of articles in the medical literature on the subject. No RCTs, though!

Best,
David M.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow.


Hi Danny, Find out your own information, since so are so concerned about being lied to. By the way, why would I explain anything about South Dakota? I have never been there. Get your trusted sources and find out yourself. Let's get back to the point of this thread.


You make assertions and tell others to do research? Not how it works.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
davidpaul$
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Oh no, mistakes made in covid testing centers. In Florida and Texas, which have been reported to have a "SIGNIFICANT" increase in covid cases, made errors. 300 testing centers in Florida found 100% positive test results of ALL those tested. (100%) Well they found out it was incorrect. It was inacurate by over 10X. Also, Doctors are saying wearing masks can cause health concerns to the wearer.

We exhale for various reasons. Some of those reasons is to get rid of those things the body NEEDS to get rid of. Restricting this process for weeks and months can be more harmful. We have been lied to and given inacurate information, yet we sheep keep believing the so called authorities. Can you say POLITICS?
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
TheMightyRicardo
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Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow.


Hi Danny, Find out your own information, since so are so concerned about being lied to. By the way, why would I explain anything about South Dakota? I have never been there. Get your trusted sources and find out yourself. Let's get back to the point of this thread.

You make assertions and tell others to do research? Not how it works.



Hi Danny,
I answered your questions by quoting your own posts that show no interest in opinions that differ from yours, despite railing against that kind of behaviour. You demanded an explanation for something in South Dakota. That was just weird. You pulled that out of nowhere. I know little about that state and I made no claims about it. So if you want to know something about that state, you look it up. Don't use the sources you constantly claim are lying, use sources you trust, if any. Since you brought it up, you do the research. That is the way it works. Don't demand that I do it. Why would I even want to? I don't find any logic in your demand, unless you know a lot about the place and want to show off.
Although I have found sensible things in your earlier posts on this topic, I have found some of the later ones a bit strange.
As I said before (and I think you agreed) let's get back to the important stuff.
davidpaul$
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The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong.

Ain't that the truth?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MaxfieldsMagic
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Instead of practicing, I made
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Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong.

Ain't that the truth?


Actually, no.

If you look at most of the rest of the world, they got it right and have the numbers to show for it.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
davidpaul$
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Quote:
On Jul 16, 2020, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong.

Ain't that the truth?


Actually, no.

If you look at most of the rest of the world, they got it right and have the numbers to show for it.

Did you do your "research" ??
Smile
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
Kaliix
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Cloth mask wearing by the general public is not supported by the science. The WHO recently changed its guidance to NOT support cloth mask wearing by the general public. They also describe when masks should be worn and I find their guidance reasonable. https://bit.ly/2WrLqoZ

Randomized Clinical Trials, those being the gold standard of research, the following study found 10 RCT "...that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature...we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks." https://bit.ly/30fPslv

The following trial done with health care workers found that cloth masks were not only ineffective but also had higher rates of infection when using cloth masks. https://bit.ly/2OuleFX

The idea that basic cloth masks can stop virus particles isn't supported by the science.
"Results obtained in the study show that common fabric materials may provide marginal protection against nanoparticles including those in the size ranges of virus-containing particles in exhaled breath." https://bit.ly/3h7fqP2

Here is another study that found cloth masks ineffective.
"Standard N95 mask performance was used as a control to compare the results with cloth masks, and our results suggest that cloth masks are only marginally beneficial in protecting individuals from particles<2.5 microns. Compared with cloth masks, disposable surgical masks are more effective in reducing particulate exposure." https://go.nature.com/32nziJB

The whole point of masks is to prevent asymptomatic carriers from infecting others. The WHO just mentioned that it appears to be rare. This study below lends credence to what other medical professionals are seeing, that asymptomatic transmission is rare.
https://bit.ly/3ev3ZyJ https://cnb.cx/2Ch2mI0

Additionally, one must follow proper mask wearing protocols if one is not going to make spread and transmission of SARS-COVID2. Improper usage can increase the risk of transmission. How many people do you observe breaking these rules? https://bit.ly/30jb7cu

NBC and ABC both did segments about the ineffectiveness of masks before mask wearing became political. Dr. Fauci, Surgeon General Adams and Former CDC Director Frieden all stated masks are ineffective. Two major news organizations that did independent programs on the same topic both reached the same conclusion, that cloth facemasks are ineffective. That is not a coincidence. Nothing scientifically has changed since then to prove cloth masks are effective. https://nbcnews.to/2Chh2qB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZiGJUbxqww


Incidentally, appeals to authority are when you refer to what someone said because they are considered and expert or authority. I referred to actual proof in the form of a RCT versus the opinion of an authority.

Quote:
On Jul 15, 2020, ekgdoc wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 14, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
I claim that declaring that a surgical facemask (or any cloth facemask) will prevent the wearer from contracting Covid-19 would be subject to RCT. Nothing you have stated disproves that. I don't specifically know if that is the case, but I'd be willing to bet it is.

You do not understand what an appeal to authority is if you call citing Randomized Controlled Trials as an example of it.

Your dismissal of the need for evidence comes as no surprise considering you have none...


Kaliix,

Thanks for your response. I have just a few comments.

If a COMPANY wanted to claim that the face mask they manufacture prevents Covid infection, they might need to do an RCT. Such a company would talk to people at the FDA to find out what type of study the FDA would require for the type of claim to be made. For example, if said company could demonstrate through basic benchwork that their mask filters particles smaller than the Covid virus, then the FDA might approve the claim without any clinical studies. (I've run clinical trials and have presented to the FDA. I know the game.)

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy only because the authority might be wrong. RCTs can also be wrong. In the right context, it might be better to trust the right authority over of the results of a poorly executed RCT. I did not mean anything more than that. I think we can agree that RCTs are the gold standard of most clinical research.

I did not dismiss the need for evidence in making public health recommendations. The more evidence the better. (That's the argument for more testing.) I could site evidence supporting the wearing of masks, but I come to the Magic Café to relax. If you go to PubMed and search for "face mask covid", you'll find dozens and dozens of articles in the medical literature on the subject. No RCTs, though!

Best,
David M.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Dannydoyle
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Kalix his entire means of discussion is "gotcha" and no proof.

He wants to claim others suffer from the same fallacy as he does therefore his failing is not a big deal. ANOTHER fallacy but no time to soak in the irony LOL.

If you are going to start using things like facts and proof how can anyone actually talk with you on this magic board?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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Quote:
On Jul 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Kalix his entire means of discussion is "gotcha" and no proof.

He wants to claim others suffer from the same fallacy as he does therefore his failing is not a big deal. ANOTHER fallacy but no time to soak in the irony LOL.

If you are going to start using things like facts and proof how can anyone actually talk with you on this magic board?




The exchange between Kaliix and ekgdoc was professional and very relevant. I found your above attack on one of them to be unpleasant and unnecessary. You constantly bemoan the quality of discussion and deceitfully demand proofs that you have already trashed.
I repeat, let us get back to the important stuff of how to handle "the new normal".
Dannydoyle
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You do see the irony of pretending to be morally superior by demanding we get back to the topic, while still engaging in the of topic posts right?

And defining what "new normal" seems to be relevant. You don't think there is a choice in doing so. Last time I looked in America we used to have choice in things. It would be nice if the information given to us by those we entrusted to help us was not shrouded in lies they admit to.

Also you made the claim the the Governor of Florida said they opened too early. I can't seem to find him saying that. All I ask is you give a link to him saying that so I can be educated.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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I didn't name the politician or his position. (I have just checked the post to make sure). You can check it yourself too.
You say "All I ask is a link to him saying that so I can be educated", but you and I know that is a lie - my source for that statement is your previous posts, which are right there for all to see.
I have been reading daily about Florida, but I have no idea why you demanded information about South Dakota from me.You have not addressed that strange behaviour.
I hope you see the irony of continuing a discussion that you have been emphatically calling pointless in a number of your above posts.
Dannydoyle
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You're confused. I'm asking where three governor of FLORIDA said he made a mistake by reopening?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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No you are confused. I said "a politician". Read my post more carefully. (I could quote it but I want you to do your own research).
Dannydoyle
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Which politician are you speaking of?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TheMightyRicardo
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I deliberately did not say the name or position of this person so that it would not become political.
The point was that you can trust that a politician who admits making a mistake, is telling the truth. This could apply to any politician.
Dannydoyle
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And somehow I am supposed to "research" that? Are you joking or trolling or just don't get it?

I am going to go ahead and doubt it ever happened.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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