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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical Accessories » » Tom Young's Utility Holdout (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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lesterkirad
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west lafayette, in
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I know that there is no knowledge on the price of the kohler/fitch holdout, but is there any word on the availability. Only select dealers carrying them, limited number produced? Any info would be appreciated.
openatlast
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Shadow of the Castle
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This definitely is for the "Magician who has everything" category. Almost guaranteed not to get your money's worth out of it.

I feel over-rigged with the Raven..can't imagine working with this contraption.
Dan Watkins
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Usually you go through dealers to move alot of product. I would guess that the holdout is probably too expensive and custom made to mass market, so you probably aquire it directly through Bob Kohler's website.
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Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-09-03 16:45, openatlast wrote:
This definitely is for the "Magician who has everything" category. Almost guaranteed not to get your money's worth out of it.
[...]


Now THERE'S an uninformed opinion if I ever saw one.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Corey K
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Rhode Island
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"Owen's Magic Supreme builds them, but I don't know the price. It's in their catalog, but says "Price Upon Application".

Owen Magic's Holdout is currently $2495.00 + shipping. It comes with a coin attachment, a card attachment and a salt pour.

Makes Kohler's look like a bargain!

-Corey
Corey King
RiserMagic
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Some information on holdouts.

Over the years I have made a wide variety of holdouts for the use of magicians, mentalists, and lecturers. There have been many types of mechanisms. For use with with these holdouts have been designed and made card clips, coin clips, dice clips, chip clips, shiner clips, silk gimmicks, derringers, bill switchers, ball clips, egg clips, liquid holders, etc. At the requests of customers, most of these holdouts have been based upon versions used by crooked card players of the late 1800's and all of these types suffer from some basic limitations due to the constraints of the "methods" themselves.

These types of holdouts can be perfect for single applications; but are really not great all around machines utilizing a variety of clips etc. This is due to the fact that for some purposes a particular style of holdout is best suited for seated work at a table with cards and this version may not work well in a standing position. Special purpose holdouts based on these old designs can be a very excellent solution to a specific problem; but they are not overly versatile. As soon as extra clips are added, the "excellence" seems to rapidly vanish.

For all around use (especially stand up work) a very modified Jack Miller type of holdout would be a better choice. Tommy Wonder expanded upon this style with significant improvements. With the various limitations in mind, the performer should very carefully select a holdout. I certainly recommend against merely going out and buying a "holdout". If you really feel that you are interested in a holdout of some type, I suggest contacting the designer/builder to determine what style would be best for your needs. By all means do not just ask the dealer who happens to have one in stock - he will tell you anything to sell it! Also be aware that whatever style of holdout that you might select will require a great deal of practice to use undetected. None are self working. All have drawbacks which must be overcome by the performer. If you are unwilling to devote the required time to use one effectively, do not buy one! That would be a very expensive mistake.

The new Fitch/Kohler holdout promises to raise holdout use to a new level. As a designer, I would like to see the development of this machine over the years to understand the thinking behind it - plus I just plain like to see a quality machine in operation. Also as a designer, I do not want to see this new holdout as being familiar with the workings would "contaminate" my thinking when designing my own versions of holdouts. I may be one of only a few people who does not want to examine the equipment.

Anyway if you are seriously considering holdout use, I suggest doing some real comparison shopping before plunking down your money.
Jim
Dan Watkins
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Jim,

One thing I think many people just don't understand is the basic difference between a Kepplinger type holdout (which I assume you mention at the beginning of your post) and the Miller type holdout.

You hit the nail on the head when you say that the Miller is more versatile and better suited to stand up work.

Having seen the Fitch/Kohler system, I cannot even fathom a way to improve the design any further. The thinking involved from the Fitch/Kohler/Wayne team is astounding.

When you think about the major issues that make traditional Miller holdouts very un-user friendly such as:

1. How to easily and quickly change ends right in front of an audience (thus becoming a versatile tool instead of an end specific one).
2. How to keep the holdout from getting misadjusted from switching ends so you maintain precision control.
3. How to easily lock the holdout out of play so it does not trigger when you don't want it to.

The F/K system solves all of those issues, it is quite ingenious.

You are familiar with the basic Miller concept. If you do get to see the F/K system, the thinking behind their design will become pretty apparent to you since you know the problems, you can see the solutions.

If you do see it, it will undoubtedly contaminate your thinking for Miller designs. Considering the legal protections that Kohler is building into this system you really might want to really think about whether or not you see it. Since the design specifics are protected, it may cause you some turmoil that you that you can't use these solutions in your own creations. It will undoubtedly cause a case of, "Damn why didn't I think of that?" syndrome.
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RiserMagic
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Quote:
On 2002-10-16 12:25, Dan Watkins wrote:
Jim,
<snip>
If you do see it, it will undoubtedly contaminate your thinking for Miller designs. Considering the legal protections that Kohler is building into this system you really might want to really think about whether or not you see it. Since the design specifics are protected, it may cause you some turmoil that you that you can't use these solutions in your own creations. It will undoubtedly cause a case of, "Damn why didn't I think of that?" syndrome.


Dan;
True, if I do not see the system, anything I might devise would be a case of "parallel development". But, more importantly to me, is that I enjoy the mental challenge of creating such goodies and do not particularly want any "help". I really have no intention of trying to rip-off friend Bob Kohler by marketing a less expensive (and most likely inferior) solution to the problem. To be quite truthful, I can hardly keep up with current projects and do not need to tackle the holdout problems right now. If I had the time, I would rather work with Bob on new attachments for his holdout than start from scratch and possibly produce an inferior product. The whole point of my posting was to let people know that to just go out and buy a "holdout" would be a big mistake.
Jim
Dan Watkins
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Hi Jim,

I did not mean to imply any ill intention of you. What I did mean to convey is that I think the solutions I saw are so good there is no way they would not influence you.

You really have some beautiful creations on your website, the skill of a craftsman never ceases to amaze me. It is a skill I seriously lack!

As to just going out and buying a holdout... I agree that would be a mistake... the only real solution involves leasing it *grin*
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RiserMagic
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Dan;
I know what you were saying and I agree with you. Once the workings are seen, thinking is forever altered ;-)

Such altered thinking bears consequences and responsibilities.

No implications were even considered. We're just talking holdouts and thought processes.

Leasing may well be the best solution - after making certain the item is what you really need/want. Price means nothing if it is the right tool for the job.

Jim
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