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R.S.
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On Jul 18, 2020, arthur stead wrote:
Thatís one way of looking at it. Some people believe we, and the material universe, were created by an all-powerful Omniscient Being. Others believe that our souls descended from far subtler planes of consciousness, where atoms do not exist.



Respectfully, no, it's not just "one way of looking at it." It is a demonstrable fact that "virtually every single atom in your body came from a star that exploded."

You are correct in that some people harbor those other beliefs, but those beliefs are not supported experimentally.

Arthur, if you want to pursue this interesting discussion further you can go ahead and PM me so as not to derail the thread.

Thanks.
Ron Smile

PS - The fact that virtually every atom in our bodies came from a star that exploded does not exclude an omnipotent being who created those stars which then forged the atoms in our bodies. But again, that's a whole other discussion. The fact remains that the atoms in our bodies can be traced to exploded stars.
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landmark
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I see no conflict between Arthur's statements and Ron's.

How does speculating about the existence of a soul or the origin of matter, conflict with the idea that our material selves are composed of atoms that at one time composed ancient stars?

BTW, I don't have to believe in either statement to observe that they don't conflict.

For example:

a) Tigers are composed of tigeron particles; and
b) Tigers were exported to Earth by the inhabitants of an alien planet

are non-contradictory statements. But neither statement implies the truth value of the other.
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What exploded star?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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R.S.
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On Jul 19, 2020, landmark wrote:
I see no conflict between Arthur's statements and Ron's.

How does speculating about the existence of a soul or the origin of matter, conflict with the idea that our material selves are composed of atoms that at one time composed ancient stars?

BTW, I don't have to believe in either statement to observe that they don't conflict.

For example:

a) Tigers are composed of tigeron particles; and
b) Tigers were exported to Earth by the inhabitants of an alien planet

are non-contradictory statements. But neither statement implies the truth value of the other.


Sure, but Arthur seemed to imply that it may not be true that the atoms in our bodies can be traced to exploded stars when he said ďthatís one way of looking at it.Ē It would be nice if he could clarify.

Ron
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R.S.
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On Jul 19, 2020, tommy wrote:
What exploded star?


Alpha Biggabooma.

Ron
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arthur stead
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On Jul 19, 2020, R.S. wrote:

Sure, but Arthur seemed to imply that it may not be true that the atoms in our bodies can be traced to exploded stars when he said ďthatís one way of looking at it.Ē It would be nice if he could clarify.

Ron


Ron, I donít want to get into a whole scientific/metaphysical discussion with anyone. That would be pointless and a waste of time.

Iím just pointing out that not everybody believes in the theory that ďatoms in our bodies can be traced to exploded stars.Ē At one time, the earth was believed to be flat Ö until someone discovered it was round. There was no theory of relativity Ö until Einstein explained it. Some people, who believe in existences beyond our material world (where there are no atoms but just pure spirit), even believe that every time one of the Hindu Gods blinks (I think itís Vishnu), another entire universe is created.

Simply said, what one person believes to be an indisputable fact, may not be acceptable for another person.
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I have never heard of him. Was he Greek?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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R.S.
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On Jul 19, 2020, arthur stead wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 19, 2020, R.S. wrote:

Sure, but Arthur seemed to imply that it may not be true that the atoms in our bodies can be traced to exploded stars when he said ďthatís one way of looking at it.Ē It would be nice if he could clarify.

Ron


Ron, I donít want to get into a whole scientific/metaphysical discussion with anyone. That would be pointless and a waste of time.

Iím just pointing out that not everybody believes in the theory that ďatoms in our bodies can be traced to exploded stars.Ē At one time, the earth was believed to be flat Ö until someone discovered it was round. There was no theory of relativity Ö until Einstein explained it. Some people, who believe in existences beyond our material world (where there are no atoms but just pure spirit), even believe that every time one of the Hindu Gods blinks (I think itís Vishnu), another entire universe is created.

Simply said, what one person believes to be an indisputable fact, may not be acceptable for another person.


Arthur,

Understood. But unlike ďpure spiritĒ or ďGods blinkingĒ the source of the elements in our bodies can be empirically traced to the cores of stars. To not accept that is to be in denial of the facts. Furthermore, it would be wrongheaded for someone to equate their personal speculation of pure spirits, Gods blinking, etc. with actual empirical evidence for the sources of the elements, a round Earth, etc.

That being said, I agree that what one person believes to be an indisputable fact, may not be acceptable for another person. The good thing is that we can put our hypotheses to the test and see which ones stand up to scrutiny.

And just so I'm clear, do you yourself accept that our atoms can be traced to exploded stars? (you can PM on that if you prefer).

Thanks.
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Ron, many years ago when I was drafted into the army, I met a fellow soldier who had extraordinary vision. When he looked at people or objects, he saw them as the millions of atoms they were made of.

Also, I can vouch for the fact that if you take enough LSD, you may at some point experience seeing the millions of shimmering molecules (or atoms, or aura, or astral body, call it what you will) which make up a human being. Just for the record: that was in my reckless youth, during the Hippie days.

Whether or not we derived from exploded stars is immaterial. If youíre thinking in purely materialistic terms, you may accept that as a fact. But some people think that our material universe is just a speck of dust within the realms of other, much more spiritual planes. They believe that a soul is a particle of God, which descended from the purely spiritual regions, through the mental and astral regions, before finally taking on the physical body.
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According to forensic science trace evidence goes both ways. So how do we know that human beings are made of exploded stars are not stars made of exploded human beings?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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R.S.
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On Jul 19, 2020, arthur stead wrote:
Ron, many years ago when I was drafted into the army, I met a fellow soldier who had extraordinary vision. When he looked at people or objects, he saw them as the millions of atoms they were made of.


Iím not sure what it means to see people or objects ďas the millions of atoms they were made of.Ē Besides, this is an anecdotal claim that we have no way of verifying. As such, I see no reason to take this extraordinary claim seriously. Do you take the claim seriously? If so, why?


Quote:

Also, I can vouch for the fact that if you take enough LSD, you may at some point experience seeing the millions of shimmering molecules (or atoms, or aura, or astral body, call it what you will) which make up a human being. Just for the record: that was in my reckless youth, during the Hippie days.


Again, and for obvious reasons, drug induced hallucinations should be viewed with extreme skepticism.


Quote:

Whether or not we derived from exploded stars is immaterial.


Itís not immaterial. Itís the exact (and only) point of my original post in this thread. But as I said, if this prompts a wider discussion for you then Iím open to it Ė just PM me please! Otherwise this can get sidetracked very quickly.


Quote:


If youíre thinking in purely materialistic terms, you may accept that as a fact. But some people think that our material universe is just a speck of dust within the realms of other, much more spiritual planes. They believe that a soul is a particle of God, which descended from the purely spiritual regions, through the mental and astral regions, before finally taking on the physical body.


Again, Iím aware that people believe all kinds of things. But thatís irrelevant here (again, PM me for a wider discussion which I'll be happy to have). The question put to you, which you havenít answered, was:

And just so I'm clear, do you yourself accept that our atoms can be traced to exploded stars?

Thanks.
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
S2000magician
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Can we not hijack this thread, guys?
R.S.
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On Jul 20, 2020, tommy wrote:
According to forensic science trace evidence goes both ways. So how do we know that human beings are made of exploded stars are not stars made of exploded human beings?


I think you're on to something Tommy. If I were you I'd write up your theory and submit it to a scientific journal. Let us know when you're awarded a Nobel prize for your groundbreaking insight.

Ron
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arthur stead
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Ron, I think we owe it to S2000magician not to hijack this thread. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not interested in scientific/metaphysical discussions. They lead nowhere.
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In keeping with the OPís request, one thing I find very interesting is the basic instinct of animals. For example, why do kittens who have never been outside automatically stalk and chase mouse or bird toys? How do they recognize that shape as a prey? What instils that knowledge in them? Iíd love to know how that works.
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R.S.
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On Jul 20, 2020, arthur stead wrote:
Ron, I think we owe it to S2000magician not to hijack this thread.


Which is exactly why Iíve been urging you all along to PM me.

Quote:

Besides, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not interested in scientific/metaphysical discussions. They lead nowhere.


Then why did you even bother responding to my original post with scientific/metaphysical musings (and later, with extraordinary anecdotes)??

And I disagree that those sorts of discussions lead nowhere. Sometimes they can be productive, or at the very least, thought-provoking. Which is why Iíll keep an open invitation to you to PM me for further discussion. Iím genuinely interested in your responses to the questions Iíve asked.

Thanks.
Ron
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Have some respect for the OP, Ron. Let's honor his request.

Arthur
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On Jul 20, 2020, arthur stead wrote:
In keeping with the OPís request, one thing I find very interesting is the basic instinct of animals. For example, why do kittens who have never been outside automatically stalk and chase mouse or bird toys? How do they recognize that shape as a prey? What instils that knowledge in them? Iíd love to know how that works.

For many years my mom worked as the editor of the journal for the Brain Research Institute at UCLA.

One of the experiments they conducted was intended to see how long kittens would substitute abnormal learned behavior for instinctive behavior. They had a mother cat and her kittens, and the pleasure center of the mother cat's brain was stimulated whenever she was fed a banana. (Note for context: cats hate bananas.) The kittens, noting that mom would eat bananas, began to eat bananas themselves (with no artificial stimulus). After some period of time, however, the kittens would realize that bananas taste like, well, bananas (i.e., gross), and would stop eating them. Alas, I do not recall the statistics on the period of time.
R.S.
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On Jul 20, 2020, arthur stead wrote:
Have some respect for the OP, Ron. Let's honor his request.

Arthur


Seriously? Youíre going to pretend that I havenít been imploring you all along to PM me for the very purpose of not sidetracking the thread?? Really??

Anyway, itís become apparent that you cannot/will not answer my simple questions. And that you likely only wanted to delegitimize my original post by positing (unsubstantiated) alternatives. And that is the true disrespect here.

Sorry, Bill. And hey, thatís a great write up on the cats and bananas Ė thanks!

Ron Smile
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A question is not a theory. Questions are that which we use to test theories; that is the way science works.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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