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youngdanf New user 45 Posts |
I'm fairly new to card magic and I was wondering how vital it is to have many flourishes. Should I devote much time to practicing them?
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Chris A. Inner circle AKA Chris A. 1123 Posts |
Flourishes can be fun. Maybe just practice a few that you like and otherwise concentrate on the "real" work needed for an effect.
AKA Chris A.
Keepin' the Funk Alive |
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
Youngdanf,
It all really depends on your stance on "the flourish debate". By that I mean a lot of magicians are opposed to flourishes because they believe them to dilute the strength of an effect. The argument being lay people will immediately know that anything you do is not magic - it is sleight of hand. This is a generally accepted argument, even by many magicians who do flourish. So why do those magicians still perform them? Well, many magicians believe that flourishes are great for establishing credibility in walkaround and table hopping situations. Some would argue (I would place myself among them) that to a lay person who has never seen cards handled well before, a good flourish can be nearly as impressive as the effect itself. To answer your question, I would definately say that flourishes are most certainly not necessary when first getting into cards. However, they can improve your all round card handling ability and can also improve your dexterity. It all comes down to this: Can you see your self as the type of card magician who does flourishes? If the answer is yes a) practice them and b) just be sure you have the magic to back them up with. We have had a dicussion similar to this one here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/archive1/vie......;forum=2 Check it out. regards, Stephen :coolspot:
Hello.
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-07-24 17:21, youngdanf wrote: I can tell you that it is not "vital" at all. |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
I'll side with Randy. It is not vital at all unless you were wanting to work on a manipulation act.
OVERDO the flourishes in close up, and it will be all flash and no substance. You will come across as a "Hey look at me" type big headed show off at worst, and a juggler at best. The key word there being OVERDO. Less is often more. Paul. |
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phonic69 Special user 560 Posts |
Plus learning flourishes will increase your manual dexterity, and that can never be a bad thing for a magician can it?
Some spectators may hate to see someone doing card stunts but conversely others may actively seek out a skilled manipulator, it can't hurt to have a few flourishes up you sleeve can it? |
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berseus New user Sweden (live in London) 49 Posts |
If you are not doing flourishes your magic becomes cleaner and there is less that distracts the spec from the effect. Anything that doesn't add to the effect detracts.
I personally believe that a really magical effect is nearly impossible to reach when flourishes are in the mix (sure, they won't know how you did it and may still be in awe or surprise, but it's not the same thing). With a lot of flourishes it's more like watching a juggler. So it depends on what you want to do. If you are going for strong MAGIC (ie, not comedy or light entertainment) then use no flourishes. I still practice flourishes for fun in the privacy of my own home though. Learn a few flourishes, try performing strong material both with and without them and feel the difference.
"How often I found where I should be going only by setting out for somewhere else." - R. Buckminster Fuller
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Mark Ennis Inner circle Raleigh, NC 1031 Posts |
Although flourishes are simply not necessary to accomplish effects, I think that they can really add to your performance if they aren't overdone.
Also, audiences do enjoy them.
ME
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Chris A. Inner circle AKA Chris A. 1123 Posts |
I think that laymen genuinely appreicate an occasional flourish and it that it doesn't detract from the "magic" at all.
AKA Chris A.
Keepin' the Funk Alive |
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TOBIAS Loyal user Seattle Magic 221 Posts |
I do magic for a living. THAT MEANS FOR MONEY. If feel both ways on them. I know some things that will leave your hands smoking, down to the ones that are little addtions for the effect. The problem magicains have is they have a experence, and that's it I never doing that again. I feel this comes down to the problem of magicains not being able to read the people they are performing for. Some effects don't work for some people, then again some people love to see a card spring or one hand cut.
Now listen and you tell me. How many people have we done magic for and they say I used to be able to cut the cards with one hand. Next thing you know you doing 32 faces of Sybil one on you chin, the other on your knee,the 20th one between your toes... Please just don't over do it. My closing state ment is this. I saw a guy roll 5 coin on one hand all at once, then he couldn't do a french drop that fool would fool a blind guy. A man's greatest strength developes at the point where he over comes his greatest weakness.
Be true to your art, and it will be true to you
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
Flourishes seem to be more important to magicians than lay audiences. The reason is the frustration that is built in with something you work very hard at so it is effectively invisible. Think of all the moves we do that actually do nothing. We invest a lot of effort shuffling cards, when our goal is actually not to shuffle. A classic force (hopefully) is "nothing" to your audiences, same with a bottom deal, top change, or pass.
The "best" moves you can do for laymen get no reaction at all, as they are not discerned. They can appreciate the "impossible result," but not your deceptive moves. Flourishes certainly can and do get a reaction, but not a particularly magical one. |
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J R Thomas Regular user Champaign Illinois 138 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-07-26 13:54, RandyWakeman wrote: I would disagree with this statement. If used in the context of a revelation a fourish can most certainly be seen as magical. Think of the John Cornelius' flourish move where the top card turns over. (I cannot remember the name of this move. Pop up move or something) If done right the flipping of the card is magical ( moving an inanimate object by no apparent means) and the revelation is magical. The Audley Walsh card jumping off the deck from Tarbell comes to mind.. I guess the real issue is how do you define a flourish? What purpose do they serve? In John Bannon's version of card under the glass the Charlier Pass is used as misdirection. In this particular case the use of a flourish acutally renforces the resulting magic. I use this same idea with Guarantor card. ( Joker with selected card written on it.) I use flourish revelations ( like Cornelius' pop over move ) to try and find the card, fail and end with the guarantor card. My failure with the flourishes makes the revelation that much stronger. If used right they can enhance your performance.
Those who hear not the music
Think the dancers mad |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Quote: I believe that's the Spring set move, although I wouldn't call it a flourish--I'd call it a production.
On 2002-07-26 14:17, J R Thomas wrote: IMO, flourishes are things like the waterfall, fancy spinning cuts, etc. The most popular flourishes nowdays seem to be the fancy, multi-packet whirling dirvish false cuts propogated by Tudor and the Buck Twins. I personally detest this sort of thing as "magic." I can appreciate the skill, but as Paul stated earlier, it is virtually impossible to do thes moves without looking like an arrogant showoff (actually, "Showoff" is the tiltle of Tudor's tapes--as if that's a good thing to aspire to!), and further, they do exactly the opposite of what a false cut should do--resemble a natural, real cut. I don't think too many people would be surprised that you can find their card when you do perfect one-handed faro shuffles simulataneously with both hands and follow it with the Leno cut. Having said all that, I do believe that you should handle cards well (except, possibly, for mentalism-only shows). If you are doing magic with cards, I think the audience expects you to be familiar with them and that you would know how to shuffle, etc. I do a few flourishes, although not as flourishes, per se--things like the ribbon spread to reveal the face up card in the face down deck in Triumph, etc.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
Scott writes: "I believe that's the Spring set move, although I wouldn't call it a flourish--I'd call it a production."
Yes, it is John Cornelius' "Spring Set," published in the first volume of the NYC Symposium books. It is not a flourish, as Scott correctly postulates. Certainly no more of a "flourish" than the "air pressure turnover," "Schulien's Prize Winner," or any number of the selected card revelations documented in J. G. Thompson's book, "THE Living End." |
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RandyWakeman V.I.P. Plainfield, ILLINOIS 1617 Posts |
There is a reason why Vernon, Marlo, Don Alan, Eddie Fechter, Slydini, and on and on did not waste large amounts of times with flourishes.
It can, if not strategically used, negatively impact the feeling of magic. Juggling is all about open display of skill, coordination, and flourishy moves. Jugglers are not magical. They can be entertaining, enjoyable, even memorable-- but there is seldom any mystery. |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Yep, it's "Spring Set" and I've used it since 1982 as part of a four ace revelation. I have never considered it a flourish.
Paul. |
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bumbleface Elite user 434 Posts |
As Vernon said, "People don't like a good looking guy with skills, they rather get kind of jealous, and presentation is the most important thing." So my opinion is that you should do flourishes as more of a seperate thing. If it goes with the effect, its good. Otherwise, focus on the main purpose of the overall effect and put the fancy stuff in later.
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J R Thomas Regular user Champaign Illinois 138 Posts |
Thanks for the clarification on the Springset move guys.
After reading what Scott and Randy have written, I have to admit I am thinking primarily of revelations which you have correctly pointed out are not flourishes. I guess I would have to agree then that flourishes are not magic. Is a flourish then something that serves no purpose except to "show off" how you have practiced a juggling move of sorts, like Tudor or the buck brothers?
Those who hear not the music
Think the dancers mad |
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MagicSponge Regular user 141 Posts |
Hey Everyone,
I do not mean to cause anything of a stir at all. I respect everyone's opinion, and I am not here to say it is near wrong. I consider a flourish anything 'fancy.' So, is John Cornelius's wonderful move a 'flourish'? In my book it is. Now, it does depend on the conditions and how you use it. But if any of you are fmailiar with Lee Ashers diving board double, and the Dominique Duvivier midair double, that is considered a flourish, so why not springset? The card(s) turn over in midair, just in a differnce method I am a huge fan of flourishes. I practice them hours and hours non-stop (If you are impressed by the Buck Twins or Brian Tudor, wait untill you see Kelvin Kowng, Dustin Crispo, Cap Casino (www.capcasino.com), or Joey Burton!.) However, I am not exactly sure why people are talking about flourishes here....this is 'The Magic Cafe' and by all means, I do not consider flourishes magic. They can have their place in a performance of magic, but the ARE NOT magic. Thats all there is to it. I think magic is the creaton of the impossible, magic could be what happens in the spectators mind. A flourish is something that can amaze a person, but not mystify. A flourish is something that is seen by the spectators. Flourishes are their own branch. They are not magic, but I do love flourshes, and I do them all the time. BUt I still focus on riffle stacking, second and bottom dealing, different passes, forces, psychological subtleties, controls, faro-work, etc. Another thing I think, is that many magicians are turned off by flourishes because they are SO DIFFICULT! Remember, there is a HUGH percentage of magicians who are only interested in learning something that they can do when they open the box or book...it makes you wonder why they are turned off by flourishes our difficult sleight of hand. I am only 15, and while I may not be great, or even good, I can say that I give magic and flourishes, and sleight of hand my biggest effort. If you aren't doing flourishes, why aren't you even doing a pass or false deal? Is it that magicians are afraid to spend more that 10 minutes a day practicing magic? You are in this art for a reason, give it your greatest effort, and it will pay you back in many more ways. If you dont do flourishes, thats fine. I just happen to love them. But if you dont do flourishes, and you don't do sleight of hand, and you don't even practice your tricks...are you much of a magician? Dai Vernon did say 'eliminate moves' I agree. But if flourishes aren't magic, why should you eliminate them? It would be similar asking a magician why he doesnt do flourishes as asking a cardshark/gambler why he doesn't do card tricks...there is a difference between magic and flourishes. Enough said! Thanks, fell free to email me, or contact me. I wish the best in magic to everyone. Sincerely, Doug- The Magic Sponge. |
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Mark Ennis Inner circle Raleigh, NC 1031 Posts |
Coincidentally Darwin Ortiz has an essay which covers this very topic in his upcoming book "Scams and Fantasies With Cards". He makes some very good points based on his perception from entertaining lay audiences for the last 20+ years. The name of the essay is called "Showing or Hiding Skill".
ME
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