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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
I'm gonna let her read that. OOOOO, are YOU in trouble!
Back to the original topic--if you have the ability to classic palm multiple coins, it does, indeed make for some very magical routines. But while 50 is nice to aspire to if you have the otherworldly skill of Reed, as a mere mortal, 4 will get you through 99% of real-world applications (like the Rollover Production).
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
I agree with Scott on that last post (not that I am in trouble with his wife) but for most purposes 4 coins will suffice. I haven't personally attempted any routines that need the initial palming of 4 coins.
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Reed McClintock V.I.P. 772 Posts |
Guys I like to play, it sharpens my chops, I am certianly not claiming to be godlike at all. I am just trying to be good at coin magic. On a regular basis I do the thirteen coin thing or I do the american flag 21 coin thing every night for entertainment. I agree on an entertaining level, 50 coins plus is probably overkill, but hey whats wrong with practicing and trying it to see if you can at home. If i am wrong I dont want to be right. Honestly I practice really unpractical things to come up with something practical
I believe in challenging myself to the ultimate in my coin magic . I do a lot of coin tricks with four coins. but look at the plots how many plots are out there with four coins. add more coins you now open up for new plots. some of you may agree and some of you may not. I will say I do not think everything in magic has been done, I do not agree with that. So please dont down me for playing. I have the material I do at night, but I dont like to just practice the material I perform, I practiced it all ready before I started perfoming it. While at home I can create and play and do nonscence stuff. That is the beauty of self expression. I used to tattoo it, and paint it and draw it, now I develop my own ideas in misdirection, and plots to routines, part of my creative process is to think absurdly and then find something cool, in that thaught process. I almost feel offended by the statements that you guys think I am saying I think I am a coin god and that simply isnt the case. I am just tired of doing the same plots and doing variations on them. People are doing things with the same plots for the last fifteen years someone needs to offer new coin plots, so I am trying to do this with the stuff I am going to be releasing soon. If you guys want another way to do matrix I am not your man, you want something fresh I am trying my best to develop that, that is what makes me different, because I am not Roth or Kam or Rubinstein, but even though they have influenced me, they have offerd originality. I to would like to do the same. So if I can come up with an idea after doing something absurd and it fools the hell out of the audience then I have won. I simply do not care about method I care about effect and I will do what ever it takes to create the ultimat effect. and not make it look like a trick. I can work out the method and if practicing it takes years to perfect then so be it. I was at the last A-1 convention and I showed a really famous magician a coin routine and the first thing out of his mouth is wow you are really working. DUH why not do something intricate as long as the effect is simple and direct and easy to follow I can not feel good about performing for people a self working trick, I feel like I would be thieving from the client. I am not lazy when it comes to my magic. That is just me. So why not work a little bit to give them something I know they have never seen before. Thatr is one of the things about being a successful magician, I could be wron I often am. Until I see something different I will continue in that belief. |
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ChessMess Veteran user 311 Posts |
hehe... Reed.. monster 'palm' muscles... tiny 'paragraph' muscles.
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Reed, buddy, you totally misunderstood me. I'm not busting on you at all. I totally admire your ability and creativity. It's just that the average guy can't do what you do. And I was merely trying to point out that you don't have to be able to do all the really hard stuff to be able to do entertaining magic--with coins or anything else.
There is certainly nothing at all wrong with practicing really hard stuff if that's what you want to do. we have different philosophies, and that's totally cool and appropriate. I wasn't insulting you, my friend, I was trying to compliment you. Sorry if I caused any offense--it wasn't intended.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Same here Reed - I meant no offense at my Reedwarzenegger picture or anything you work on. Thats just humor and I know from your first resposne, you got it.
I think it is great you push the envelope. You do stuff that not many people can do, you know it. Like in my response above to Scott's posting for most purposes 4 coins will suffice as he says. You know that going beyond that is just that - your going beyond into new things that is not categorized as "most purposes", or for that matter its not stuff most can do. Each and every one of us are blessed with different levels of skill and talent to do what we do. If you are given talent to go beyond the majority, by all means rock on bro. I for one can't wait to see your killer stuff in person. |
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Reed McClintock V.I.P. 772 Posts |
I was just starting to feel like maybe you guys thaugh the stuff I was working on wasnt practical is all. The words read differently than if they were said in real time, I just read into it to deeply is all, and I appologize, I am real sensitive sometimes about my creativity. I am curious what all of the coin workers would look like all in big muscles. Dean Dill, Guinn, Kam,Watkins, Rubinstein, Roth, neighbors, stone, and a few others, that might make a fun book cover. lol
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Don't know that i consider myself a "coin worker"--I'm more of a GP who does some coin stuff--not remotely in a league with those other names.
Actually, before I was in a car wreck that broke my neck a few years back, I was a competetive amateur body builder. Nothing like Arnie, but I had 18 inch guns, a 48 inch chest, 28 inch waist and 5% bodyfat. (I managed a health club in Federal Way, WA in the 80's.) Those days are long gone now, although I did lose 50 pounds since the first of the year--I was 248 and now I'm 197! More info than anybody wanted....
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Hi Reed I only have One big Muscle On my right Arm! .
Best David Neighbors The Coinjurer |
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ChessMess Veteran user 311 Posts |
Had to bring up this topic again when I found this. A trip to the local library, where they had about 6/7 magic books, unfortunately none of the ones I keep seeing referenced here in the forums.
So I grabbed one called 'The Amateur Magicians Handbook - Fourth Edition' by Henry Hay. I'm reading the intro 'A few Words before Curtain Time' where he describes some letters written by Thomas Nelson Downs to a friend in Rhode Island. From one of the letters it reads... April 12, 1924: "The Kid arrived Sat. nite & left Monday. Smart kid-very enthusiastic, very fond of the coin work. Did not believe it possible to palm and produce 35 to 40 half dollars so I had to show him." What I understand is that Mr. Downs was a pretty good coin worker... so looks like Reed is in good company. The 'Ironmen' of coin magic. |
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ChessMess Veteran user 311 Posts |
Here is another good excerpt:
"..the work of people like Downs can be more astounding if you know how they do it than if you don't. For instance, when he made sixty coins disappear from his closed fist, it was merely a diverting illogicality; but if you knew that they disappeared because he had noiselessly palmed the whole stack in the innocent hand so carelessly spread against his knee, that approached the incredible" |
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-08-04 14:18, ChessMess wrote: T. Nelson Downs was known as the King of Koins and is probably one of the most famous coin manipulators at the turn of the 19th century. Many of Downs techniques were more applicable to the stage venues he performed in. Downs was not actually holding that many coins in classic palm in a flat stack. You simply run out of hand muscle to hold the coins. Though if you turn the coins at an angle the bottom coins that you palm actually create a wedge that holds in a lot more coins than your hand can actually palm. The other thing Downs did was use edge palm. With edge palm you are palming the coins by their edges and can simply contine to add coins to the stack to such point you are not even touching the coins anymore. |
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
Hmmm. I am a little dubious about a number of claims that Mr Downs made about his prowess. He was, by his own admission, the best thing since sliced bread (not his words) , you will note that in a number of places in Bobo's, his descriptions on the methodologies were called into question by the editor.
It is also definately known that Mr Downs was known to embellish his own capabilities. His capability to backpalm and reproduce a huge line (I beleive 6) was facilitated by a gimmick - that's it. Looks great in photos (as does his huge stack of coins in edge palm - try to retrieve those puppies easily though - let alone shift your hand to a horizontal plane!!!), but he quite simply did not do it in real life. Indeed, there is also some claims made that his infamous backpalming display was also embellished - which if true, makes the explanation in Bobo's completely false. The bottom line is this. He was indeed a fellow of unimaginable skill, but he was also a showman and he liked to impress. Ocassionally this meant beefing up the descriptions of his methods.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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Dan Watkins Inner circle PA 3028 Posts |
In all fairness to the Downs quote that ChessMess provided - he said "Produce" 35 to 40 half dollars, not neccessarily palm them.
Though I focused on palming since that is the topic of this thread. |
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Eric Evans Special user Rio Grande 668 Posts |
If the focus upon the original question asked had been more precise, then there would've been a lot less chest drumming in this thread I suspect.
Chris S. doesn't appear to know what he's talking about when he questions Downs' abilities. If one looks at Vernon's original comments about Downs and recounting the first time he saw the gimmick Chris cites, you'll find that he (Downs) did the effect twice, once with the gimmick, and again without. So Chris, when knocking a great one, get your facts straight before you sound as stupid as you do. But to my original point -- the question on the table, that seemed to go unaddressed was: "How many coins can you CLASSIC palm..." Now there's no way anyone can Classic more than 3 of any kind of coin and not have a cramped appearance, but I'll wager not a one of you can Classic HALF of the numbers you've mentioned in this thread. BTW, hello fellas! This isn't my usual haunt, but it was interesting dropping by for a few. |
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Magicman0323 Special user Just outside parts unknown. 713 Posts |
4-5 = Natural.
:P 6-7 = Hmmmmmm? :huh: 8-10 = Pickin them up off the floor! :whatthe:
You'll wonder when I'm coming, you'll wonder even more when I'm gone. - Max Malini
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magicalan New user 51 Posts |
As to the original question...........I can palm 7 coins at a time, but i use quarters because i have the hands the same size as an average 7 year old, even though I'm 13. Plus everybody has quarters.......i find it dificult to borrow a half dollar from a layman
-Alan |
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Chris S Veteran user 393 Posts |
Well Eric, perhaps YOU should get your facts straight before calling people with perfectly reasoned comments on this board 'stupid'. Not only does it insult people, it points you out as someone who is a wee bit presumptuous.
Had you investigated beforehand, perhaps with a nicely worded, restrained question to me, you would have discovered that the Vernon case I am referring to has NEVER BEEN PUBLISHED. I discovered the instance when talking to my close friend Mr Chuck Fayne, a student of Vernons. Downs had at least 2 gimmicks that he never released officially to the magic community and one of them was used in the backpalming display - it is NOT the gimmick (or indeed the famous anecdote) you are referring to. I merely posited that Downs was perhaps not as dextrous as his published routines would suggest (and if he COULD have done them, he usually had easier methods which he kept sub rosa) - a standpoint that many people have agreed with. Maybe you should learn some manners before continuing your posts here at this forum. It is one of the better aspects of the magic cafe that the petty rebukes of people are kept to a minimum by members' restraint, combined with excellent monitoring.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
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MAGICTOM Veteran user Dallas, Tx 354 Posts |
WELL PUT CHRIS,
There have been several instances which members have called people "Stupid" in here and it is really un-called for. Thankfully 99% of the "real" magicians in the Cafe have enough common sense and dignity to understand that there many individuals that have differing opinions, and they respect the fact that everyone is entitled to their own. Being that you are new here (2 posts), I hope this has not discouraged you from posting. Take care Tom Defrange
No Man is his craft's master the first day!
J.B. Bobo |
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Eric Evans Special user Rio Grande 668 Posts |
>>Well Eric, perhaps YOU should get your facts straight before calling people with perfectly reasoned comments on this board 'stupid'. Not only does it insult people, it points you out as someone who is a wee bit presumptuous.<<
Perhaps heresay is "perfectly reasoned comments" to you, but there is at least one person in your third hand story that had an axe to grind in the matter. So I wouldn't trust that information at all, especially since there is plenty of testimony to the contrary, Vernon's not the least of which points to the contrary. And to be specific, I said you sounded stupid, I wouldn't PRESUME near as much as you apparently would have yourself believe. >>His capability to backpalm and reproduce a huge line (I beleive 6) was facilitated by a gimmick - that's it. Looks great in photos (as does his huge stack of coins in edge palm - try to retrieve those puppies easily though - let alone shift your hand to a horizontal plane!!!), but he quite simply did not do it in real life.<< That sounds pretty black and white to me, he was witnessed and claimed to do something that your friend said he couldn't so you believe your friend.. I see. Or, wait a minute, on your follow up post to me you said that you "merely posited that Downs was perhaps not as dextrous as his published routines would suggest"? Which is it? Was Downs a liar in your estimation? Or did he merely embellish? Because to me, claiming that Downs couldn't backpalm 6 coins is patently absurd. And calling him a liar for claiming that he could is a lot worse an afront that me telling someone they're sounding stupid (and from where I'm looking you still do). Now you're exaggerating what I did, and softening what you said. Doesn't seem like the ground you occupy is very stable. On a positive note, I have no problem whatsoever with the portion of your post where you state that Downs indeed embellished, but not near to the point that you claim. Besides, ultimately there is no way that you can refute the Professor's own words, regardless of what Chuck Fayne is alleged to have said he heard Vernon say. Lastly, there would appear to be guys out there who love the fact(?) that the greats maybe weren't as great as they or someone else claimed they were. I guess that might be a solace to them in light of the fact that they themselves don't even come close to that same greatness. And that's a waste, and yes, stupid. |
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