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Ray Pierce
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Wasn’t Fauchi’s job simply making recommendations based on the information he received and his past experience? That’s not an elected position. I don’t remember him ever being in charge of actually making policy. If he made recommendations (or the CDC or anyone else for that matter) it seems it would have been the responsibility of someone higher up the chain to interpret (or even ignore) his advisors and then make policy accordingly. The CDC makes public recommendations as well. On the other hand, if the WH changes the official CDC work product to suit their message, it would seem to undermine the reputation of the CDC and render their statements moot.
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Ken Northridge
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Https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/sensible-......UD_4RQZQ

I am struck by how scientific these conclusions are. But many of our leaders make their lockdown and restrictive economic decisions based on 'science', and ridicule any dissenting voice and label them as a science denier.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
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landmark
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Https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/sensible-......UD_4RQZQ


Short version: None of his arguments hold water. It was written and funded with a particular political agenda in mind. Medicine, science, not so much. You can read about his funding and such here if you like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrington_Declaration

If you've got time, point by point:

1. Arguing about the fatality *rate* is meant to distract and confuse. Fatality *rate* with regard to cases is besides the point--it's the absolute number of fatalities which is important. For example, which would you rather have--5 people die out of a total of 10 cases in the entire country, or 10,000,000 dead out of 50,000,000 cases in a country? Clearly in the first instance the fatality rate is 50% and in the second one the fatality rate is only 20%; yet in the first instance only 10 are dead and in the second one 10,000,000 are dead.

So fatality rate is not a good indicator of a virus's damage. It's the absolute number of deaths it causes which is important.

2. He argues that Covid is more deadly for older people. Undoubtedly true. But he draws no conclusion from such data. Does that mean it's okay for youngsters to be exposed to the virus? What about possible transmission from young to old? He says *nothing* about that--presumably that might upset his agenda.

Until we know what the rate of transmission is from young to old, we do not know that it's harmless for society to allow the young to catch covid.

3. He talks about the economic damage from lockdowns. First of all lockdown is an inflammatory, hyperbolic term bandied about to cover many situations. Julian Assange is in lockdown; prisoners locked in prisons who have no way of escaping infection are in a state of lockdown; a person who cannot have their nails professionally manicured or eat at an indoors restaurant is not in a state of lockdown.

Which is not to say there haven't been real economic and societal costs.

But those economic costs are purely the result of selfishness and greediness by the very same people who fund The Great Barrington statement in the link. If governments wanted to, those economic costs could be largely mitigated. They CHOOSE not to do so. Remember that when you think about the wealthiest country in the world and what actual relief has been offered to people. The agenda of transfer of wealth to the wealthy continues. The US went to covid and all we got was this lousy $1200 check. If that. Compare with many other countries suffering much less--because their govts responded in a way that addressed people's needs.

So his complaints about the economy need to be taken up in the political sphere. Next time vote for people that will actually work to make things better for working people instead of stealing their labor and money.


4.He recommends we wait until we reach herd immunity. In the meantime steps to take include: "nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity." This is complete and utter nonsense *since we have no idea whether acquired immunity exists* We have no time frame at all for this. Six months, one year, two years, forever?

And the recommendation about reaching herd immunity is another grievious mistake. As Sweden--the country that Slim likes to misinform about so much--shows. They relied on the herd immunity theory and experienced *far* more deaths in Sweden both absolute and by percentage than its three closest neighbors.

There are certainly good criticisms that can be made of the way the US govt has handled this pandemic. This statement by Jay Bhattacharya addresses *none* of them and is instead a corporate agenda-driven piece of disinformation.
Dannydoyle
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Is it a coincidence only that your belief in some science and not others lines up perfectly with your view of government power and what should be done?

How amazing the solutions you propose involve exactly what you want to expand government power to.

Businesses are being shuttered for GOOD landmark. People are not greedy. I know you hate capitalism so this works for you, but folks are dying from the result of lock down. And make no mistake that is what this is. Trying to compare it to your hero is ridiculous. The government calls them lock downs, I think we can as well.

You claim they can mitigate the damage? How about giving me back the 200 grand plus I have lost? The government can not float every small business and every person who has lost money. You blow it off because you are happy to see it as an indictment of capitalism, but I am here to tell you that lock downs are killing people in REAL TIME. You are happy to play silly word games and to debate it as if it matters. People who are being killed, starving, homeless and so forth don't have time to do such a thing.

So save us the platitudes. Those of us impacted by this in real time don't care. It has shattered people's dreams, lives and families. I know it doesn't bother you but it affects PEOPLE. Maybe you should think about that before just pushing your agenda. Normally it doesn't bother me so much but you are just on the wrong side when you say it was caused by folks being "greedy" and that is annoying.
Danny Doyle
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landmark
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As your solutions line up perfectly with your view of government.

Difference is, you've not addressed any of the evidence.

And you ask for expertise, and then choose to ignore the person with the absolute most expertise in the field. As did his boss ignore his advice.

It takes a powerful agenda to do that much ignoring. Read the Wikipedia link for Bhattacharya's agenda, which is what my last post was addressing.
Dannydoyle
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I am doing EXACTLY what the government tells me to do. What EXACTLY am I ignoring?

What evidence do I have to address? Have I said that you should NOT follow guidelines? If not then why would I have to address anything?

I AM addressing the economic impact. Do you believe they are just from selfish and greedy folks and everyone should shut up and wait until your all powerful government steps in to help?

And again if I am complying, which I do, then what have I ignored. I have stated MANY times I am not an expert, which you clearly are. But still help me with what I am ignoring.

Oh and my question to all every time is the following. What if the all powerful government you love so much just got this WILDLY wrong? What if most of this was not necessary and no matter WHAT we did it would have turned out the same? Would you trust them to admit it?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Oh and my question to all every time is the following. What if the all powerful government you love so much just got this WILDLY wrong? What if most of this was not necessary and no matter WHAT we did, it would have turned out the same? Would you trust them to admit it?


Sweden tried that. The economy still crashed, and more people died compared to neighboring countries.

I don’t think there’s an easy answer. It’s a global pandemic, so it will affect the globe.
landmark
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Businesses are being shuttered for GOOD landmark


Absolutely. And people laid off for good. That's the system you're defending. The system that lets that happen.

Quote:
You claim they can mitigate the damage? How about giving me back the 200 grand plus I have lost?


Absolutely. That's what I'm advocating for Danny. Instead of fighting for a failed system, fight for getting something for actual people instead of a T-Shirt and trillions to corporations that don't need it. Why do you insist on undercutting yourself? Do you think you don't deserve it? Why don't you fight for working people and small businesses so that we can get what the people of other countries get? Instead there's all this rhetoric that the government can't do that. Of course they could have! They gave away *trillions* of dollars--not millions or billions, *trillions*.

By the end of the year unemployment benefits are going to run out for millions; those who lost their jobs are going to lose their health insurance as well--because unlike so many other advanced economies the US govt still denies universal medical care to millions. There's a world out there--we can see with our own eyes the difference in what happens in countries that actually care about their people and those that don't.
Andy Young
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On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
As your solutions line up perfectly with your view of government.

Difference is, you've not addressed any of the evidence.

And you ask for expertise, and then choose to ignore the person with the absolute most expertise in the field. As did his boss ignore his advice.

It takes a powerful agenda to do that much ignoring. Read the Wikipedia link for Bhattacharya's agenda, which is what my last post was addressing.

I don't think anyone really thinks he is the absolute expert on this. He is a speaker with a background that aligns with what he is talking about. There is surely better individuals that have more expertise. They are working behind the scenes.

As for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts. I remember when Trump said about a vaccine coming soon and the media said he was making that up, but looks like he was right. There are experts that take both lines. You can choose which ever side you want and find expert friends.
Dannydoyle
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Where does the money just appear from?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Trillions were appropriated.

When money is distributed to real people, instead of large corporations, the money goes back into circulation into the real economy very quickly; people need it to keep up with essentials, their rent, their mortgage payments, their tuition. When given to large corporations, they often stash it, use it for buyouts (where they can then layoff yet more workers!) or buy up more of their own stock.
landmark
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He is a speaker with a background that aligns with what he is talking about.


No, Andy, he is not just a speaker. He has *decades* of experience as a research medical scientist *specifically* in the field of infectious diseases. It would be like comparing me to Dai Vernon. He's certainly not infallible but I'll believe him over some partisan Senator or failed casino owner. And if you think an expert is wrong about his recommendations, fine, everyone is worthy of being challenged, but in the case of an expert, then it's up to the challenger to provide strong evidence for his point of view.
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
Trillions were appropriated.

When money is distributed to real people, instead of large corporations, the money goes back into circulation into the real economy very quickly; people need it to keep up with essentials, their rent, their mortgage payments, their tuition. When given to large corporations, they often stash it, use it for buyouts (where they can then layoff yet more workers!) or buy up more of their own stock.


I know you believe this but it is not necessarily fact.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
thomasR
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“As for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.”

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx?
Andy Young
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On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
“As for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.”

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx?

You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near.
Andy Young
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
He is a speaker with a background that aligns with what he is talking about.


No, Andy, he is not just a speaker. He has *decades* of experience as a research medical scientist *specifically* in the field of infectious diseases. It would be like comparing me to Dai Vernon. He's certainly not infallible but I'll believe him over some partisan Senator or failed casino owner. And if you think an expert is wrong about his recommendations, fine, everyone is worthy of being challenged, but in the case of an expert, then it's up to the challenger to provide strong evidence for his point of view.

You were the one stating he was the absolute expert. I was saying there must be others better then him.

Now as for an expert being challenged. You don't need strong evidence for a point of view. You simply need evidence that people will believe with the proper advertising. Appearance matters even though that has nothing to do with truth.
thomasR
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
“As for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.”

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx?

You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near.


Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate.
Ken Northridge
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I think it needs to be reinforced that ‘Operation Warp Speed’ was an amazing success and will go down in history as a great moment in time. I would argue this was made possible by Trump’s leadership and a capitalist system.

Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
When money is distributed to real people, instead of large corporations, the money goes back into circulation into the real economy very quickly; people need it to keep up with essentials, their rent, their mortgage payments, their tuition. When given to large corporations, they often stash it, use it for buyouts (where they can then layoff yet more workers!) or buy up more of their own stock.


This is so backwards.

Large corporations employ hundreds of thousands of people and generate billions of dollars for the government. Large corporations and rich business owners, and the hundreds of thousands of people that are employed by them, are what make the country work! Distributing money to real people sounds nice and compassionate, but what you are suggesting is punishing the very people that are making the country thrive!

And by the way, most of these large corporations and rich people donate millions of dollars to charity. But that’s not enough. When you press a liberal on what the tax rate should be for the rich I’ve heard some say 90%! Really? What’s the incentive to work hard and prosper?

Back to Operation Warp Speed. It was the INCENTIVE to be the first and to PROSPER financially.

Is capitalism so evil?
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
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Andy Young
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
“As for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.”

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx?

You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near.


Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate.

Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it.
landmark
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This is so backwards.

Large corporations employ hundreds of thousands of people and generate billions of dollars for the government. Large corporations and rich business owners, and the hundreds of thousands of people that are employed by them, are what make the country work! Distributing money to real people sounds nice and compassionate, but what you are suggesting is punishing the very people that are making the country thrive!

And by the way, most of these large corporations and rich people donate millions of dollars to charity. But that’s not enough. When you press a liberal on what the tax rate should be for the rich I’ve heard some say 90%! Really? What’s the incentive to work hard and prosper?

Back to Operation Warp Speed. It was the INCENTIVE to be the first and to PROSPER financially.

Is capitalism so evil?


1. "Generate billions of dollars for the government"

In 2018, how much tax did Amazon pay on 11 billion dollars of income? If you guessed, 30% about 3 billion, or 20% about 2 billion, or 10% a billion or 0%--0 dollars, you would be wrong. They actually received a tax refund of 129 million.

Of course they may have been upset about that since the year before in 2017, they received a tax refund of 137 million.

In 2019 on 13.9 billion of income they paid 162 million. That's an effective tax rate of slightly over 1%. Congratulations.

So generate billions of dollars for the government? No. At best, they collected sales tax for the govt--yours and my money, not theirs. And put thousands of small business people out of business while underpaying their workers, and overburdened an already overburdened US postal service.

2. "And by the way, most of these large corporations and rich people donate millions of dollars to charity."

These charities are often a way to politically influence policy in ways that they would be forbidden otherwise. Michael Bloomberg, for example, was a master at this. When the Center for American Progress was about to come out with a report about Islamophobia in the wake of 9/11, he donated money so that they would take out a section about police conduct, and after the censored report was issued, donated another bunch of money. Just one of many, many ways he used his money to silence critics and consolidate power.

And of course, Apple and Microsoft give all kinds of money to "education" with the express purpose of pushing their brand loyalty on future users. But it's worse than that. Bill Gates's meddling in education programs has been failure after failure starting with the small school movement to Common Core. And of course corporate giving is often used to whitewash a company's misdeeds.

So yes large corporations spend money in their self-interest. But even the Mafia gives out turkeys on Thanksgiving.

3. "When you press a liberal on what the tax rate should be for the rich I’ve heard some say 90%!"

Misleading, though that number 90% was not picked out of the air. That was the actual marginal corporate tax rate under President Eisenhower, under whose administration both the rate of job growth and median family income increased substantially. Talking of a 90% tax rate is misleading--it's a return to a 90% *marginal* tax rate that some have advocated. That means only the portion above a certain number is taxed. So, for example, under Eisenhower in 1953 the 90% tax rate only applied to that portion of income over about 3 million--which was a lot of money in those days. It only applied to a relatively few people.

4. "Back to Operation Warp Speed. It was the INCENTIVE to be the first and to PROSPER financially."

Had the US entered into agreements with the rest of the world to share scientific knowledge, we might have had a vaccine even sooner and at much lower cost. Now once again, US consumers--basically all of us--are on the hook for the whims of the US vaccine makers.

And this for-profit rush has created a secondary problem. *Many* people, rightly or wrongly, have little trust that a vaccine reduced under such a rush system is going to be safe, when pharmaceutical companies have had every incentive to cut corners. It's not like those very same companies haven't blatantly, criminally lied about their products' efficacy in the past when it affected their bottom lime.

And so far, I don't believe that any of the companies announcing vaccines have actually released their research test results. It's all been self-reported. We don't know length of protection, the efficacy of results in gender, age, and race subgroups, and so on. Nor do we know possible frequency and severity of side effects.

So with regard to Operation Warp Speed, the jury is still out. With regard to incentive, you might want to recall instead what Dr. Jonas Salk did with the polio vaccine. It was enough incentive for him that his name would forever go down into history as one of the great medical researchers of all time.

5. "Is capitalism so evil?"

I don't believe inanimate systems can be morally good or evil. But they can be successes or failures. They can be efficient or broken. And a system that cannot provide basic food, clothing, work, and medical care for its people in the worst pandemic in a century, while other Western countries can do so, is broken. People agree to economic and political systems because they feel that they are set up to help them survive. If it can't help, then what good is the system that was set up? Would you keep a car that breaks down every time you really need to get to the other side of town? The car isn't "evil" but it doesn't work. You either need to fix it or get a new one.
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