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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » I'll probably get my butt kicked for saying this. (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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I think it means to trust. Con men win the trust of the victim and people gravitate to people they trust. People are naturally a little anxious of strangers, new performers and so on. They say that one has 30 seconds to win their trust and if one fails it is an uphill battle from there. If one is a well-known performer the audience are not so wary perhaps. Essentially one has to begin well.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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Thinking about it, I will say that if a magician follows all the rules in the book in Our Magic he is bound to be liked and the more of them there rules that he breaks the more disliked he is bound to be. That is because the rules are designed to help the magician give his audience complete satisfaction, to win both their hearts and minds. Apart from curing sick, I can't what else a magician can do.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Pop Haydn
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I think a major thing is the magician's attitude toward his work and his audience. What does he want from them? What does he want to give them? He must enjoy what he is doing--fill it with joy.
tommy
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Yes, but a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Attitude is one aspect of our magic but the audience is not going to like one or one’s act just because one has a wonderful attitude. If one or more other aspects are bad it can spoil the whole thing. According to Our Magic, the audience wants entertainment and magic, in other words, they want their hearts minds won. Some call it whole-brain satisfaction. The bosh wins their heart the action wins their mind. How much so depends on how well it is all done. I think you are going soft. The professional wants their money. To get the money you have work hard constantly because you are up against the competition. Some of the competition might not like you. Such is life.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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"whole-brain" satisfaction! The mind boggles. Folks to day have only half the brain of earlier generations (knowledge, vocabulary, reasoning ability, etc.),
and that half is manipulated by marketers. The old saying, "I have half a mind to ..." is true.

So, does one try and satisfy the half that is there or the half that is missing/sublimated/hiding?

But, I am glad that you know what the audience wants. Studies show they only want what the latest ad pop-up told them to want.
Many in an audience today are there because they are chemically addicted to entertainment.

Me, I'll go and watch Pop because it is joyful and and I like being around fun energy rather than dismal news junk.
Doesn't matter if I like him or not. Nothing to do with winning my mind or heart either.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
tommy
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Yes, people, today don’t even know that vases are clay playing the role vases, nor that jewellery is gold and stones, taken from nature, which never lies and fashioned by the arm of man to play the role of jewellery and they think these things do not lie. Some even ask, when did a tile become art? When you tell them, they don't believe you!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Josh Riel
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Quote:
On Jan 23, 2021, tommy wrote:
...taken from nature, which never lies...


I know it's been said before, but nature lies all the time.
Manny creatures pretend to be something else. Sometimes to stay alive, sometimes to steal, sometimes to kill.

For instance the larvae of this butterfly
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
tommy
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It has been said before:

"Unlike people, nature never lies."

- Dr Yanagimachi

Awards and honors:

Fulbright Scholarship, USA-Japan, 1960 and 1964
Lalor Foundation Scholarship, USA, 1964-1966.
Zoological Society Prize, Japan, 1977
Research Award, Society for Study of Reproduction, USA, 1982
University of Hawaii Regents' Medal for Excellence in Research, USA, 1988
Recognition Award, Serono Symposia, USA, 1989
Marshall Medal, Society for the Study of Fertility, UK,1994
International Prize for Biology, Japan, 1996
Honorable Degree of Philosophy from the University of Rome, Italy, 1997
Distinguished Andrologist Award, American Society of Andrology, USA, 1998
Induction to the Polish Academy of Sciences, Poland, 1998
Carl G. Hartman Award, Society for the Study of Reproduction, USA, 1999
Honorable Degree of Philosophy, University of Pavia, Italy, 1999
Honorary Member, European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology, 1999
Pioneer Award, International Embryo Transfer Society, 2000
Induction to the National Academy of Sciences, USA, 2001
Honrable Degree of Philosophy, Hokkaido University, Japan, 2002
Induction to Hall of Honor, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, USA, 2003
Donald Henry Barron Lecture, University of Florida, USA, 2003
Pioneer Award in Reproduction Research, USA, 2012
Lifetime Achievement Award, Society of Reproductive Biologists and Technologists, USA, 2014

https://manoa.hawaii.edu/kaunana/uhms-ry......er-lies/
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
dustrod
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Unlike Dr Yanagimachi, nature never lies.
Haha, just kidding

Tommy, I've been reading Our Magic on your recommendation. Thanks.
Josh Riel
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Nature does lie though. The link I offered proves undisputedly so. The grub -that is NOT an ant- smells like an ant, and even makes noises like the queen so it will get preferential treatment and be fed by or feed on the ants.
That's not the only example. "imitating the light signals of other fi...... males."

"lays its eggs in the nests of other sma...... young."

"smaller cuttlefish use their camouflage...... female"

I mean, if it were a person doing it it would undisputedly be dishonest.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
funsway
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It is interesting to me how different folks interpret the word/concept "lie"

are deceptions and camouflage a "lie" or a special truth? Is wearing makeup a lie or establishing a new truth? A push-up bra?

As a magician I never lie. I tell my audience I am going to demonstrate something considered impossible using guile, artifice and trickery - then do exactly that.
I may be the most truthful person they encounter all day compared with politicians, ministers, accountants, doctors, etc.

As a sales person/trainer I never lied about a product or service, but was expert and creating new truths.

I used to be very good at knowing when a person was lying in a conversation. Today I hope I can tell when they are telling the truth.

Thus, in a sense all of the post above are equivocating on what "lie" means as related to truth, honesty, accuracy or intent.

Even saying that nature "lies" or does not "lie" is a false statement since nature does not "do" anything.
Anthropomorphizing creates an illusion or reality that is interesting and impactful but certainly false. Is it a lie? I think not since the illusion is obvious and the intent benign.

If I say that a tree told me it would snow tomorrow, am I lying, delusional, confused or describing a truth you might not understand?
If, because of my statement, you go shopping today rather than tomorrow as planned, are you lying to yourself or open to "natures's truth?"

When a doctor give a placebo to a dying patient it is a lie and of questionable ethics.
If I keep an accident victim from going into shock by lying about his dead wife, it is falsehood but ethically sound and even necessary. I would not feel "dishonest."

A recent university study of squirrel behavior shows that they a expert in deception, misdirection, palming, false loads and more - all the sleights/action C&B performers are proud of.
Now, any magician claiming to have invented such a move or that C&B evolved from a shell game is lying. But, they don't know any better so they are not - maybe.

When the students give the squirrel a nut, observe where it is hidden and then steal it - they are creating a lie far worse than any deception of the squirrel;
but that is just an opinion about the importance of truth in scientific testing.

My wife thinks I am up at 4AM working on a novel. I had better get back to bed before she catches my in a lie.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
tommy
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Misleading by "telling the truth" is today called: paltering.

https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releas......0081.pdf
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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Anything artificial, art, for example, is made by the arm of man, that is where art comes from. Artists take materials from nature, that which is and fashion them to play the role of something which they are not. Nature never lies, there are no contradictions in nature, it is simply that which it is. We do however run into, misinterpretations of our observations. You might see a stick insect and mistake it for a stick but that is your problem. A stick insect is still a stick insect and a stick is still a stick, regardless of what you or anything else thinks. It is a natural phenomenon like a mirage is a natural phenomenon and a mirage can promise you the earth the stars and the moon if you misinterpret your observations of what it is. If you mistake a cow for a horse it does not follow that the cow is a liar. A black cat is black because it hunts at night - that is its nature.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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A Merlin Hawk is a successful hunter because it can mimic the flight pattern, wing movements and cry of different bird species
considered "non-threatening" to the target birds. It does not change its coloring or shape. Instead it lies.
It pretends to be something it is not just to get close to its prey. Kind of like on-line dating Smile

Amazingly, it can mimic birds never seen when moved to a new environment. Instinct? How? Telepathic? Maybe.
Regardless, it deliberately sends a false message about what it is for the purpose of gaining an advantage - a lie.
It also chooses which lie to tell according to the species it hunts. It does not just mimic other birds near by.

Thus, it does not learn to lie from observing other birds. Lying (deliberate falsehood to gain advantage) is its nature.

I don't know about its mating habits. Perhaps there it tells the truth.

There are insect species that lie as well - deliberately sending out false messages of identity or purpose by use of sound, sent and energy pulses.

Yes, it is its nature to hunt other birds to survive. It has developed the
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
tommy
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Monkey see monkey do is a pidgin-style saying that appeared in American culture in the early 1920s. The Merlin Hawk naturally mimics other birds for its amusement and the other birds observe this and misinterpret their observation and as a result, they get killed. Such is life. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
funsway
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Amazing conclusion or projection, tommy. So you don't think a bird is capable of lying, but do think it can mimic birds it has never seen for amusement.

How does it know which mimicry will most amuse the birds? Lying is easier than thinking. That is why people do it to.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Josh Riel
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Honestly I don't even know why I chimed in, besides my own arrogance... maybe the misguided belief I'll change an opinion. What does that accomplish?

It doesn't matter even slightly! Nature does what it does and has done for a long time, and we can call it whatever we call it.

Philosophy appears to be a largely human thing, Tardigrades will probably outlive it.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
Jonathan Townsend
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...in circuit lies? paltering Smile

Quote:
Tell all the truth but tell it slant —
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind —
Dickenson
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
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Some birds are pretty good Parrots.

If you teach a parrot to tell a lie, tell me, is it lying?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
weirdwizardx
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I personally think that wether there is a patter or not, wether there is a presentation or not, there allways is.

If Shin Lim, for example, makes a trick and uses music, and gestures and faces, instead of words, then that's the presentation.
The same applies for any act of magic.

Magic, I think, is a subgenre of theatre, where the narrative is: there is a problem, the magician resolves it.

How you present the problem? Silent? Wiht music? With just some words? With some witty comedic lines? that's all presentation...

How do you resolve the problem? With a wand? With a gesture? With some hocus pocus? that's all presentation too...

It was a long time ago since I posted, well, here I am, again...
Cristóbal
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