The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Alternative premises for mentalism (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
MC Mirak
View Profile
Regular user
190 Posts

Profile of MC Mirak
Quote:
On Oct 22, 2020, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Do people market something other than entertainment, because then, maybe, I'd see the issue?

Yes.
E.g. John Edward


I expected that somebody would name him or that Sylvia lady (maybe I am getting the name wrong). Do they actually use many of the same methods? My understanding is a vast majority of their work is around hot readings (with some cold reading thrown in there). I would also posit that they don't market themselves as mentalists or magicians.

I guess I am thinking it is the difference between Avengers: Engame, the Blair Witch Project, a documentary from PBS on the lifecycle of mayflies, and a "documentary" on how the world is flat.

The first is obvious entertainment, the second SHOULD BE obvious entertainment but some people get confused, the third is a factual communication of information (edu-tainment as it were), and the last is clearly aimed at a subset of the population that believes it.

Do the producers of Endgame worry at all about that flat Earth "documentary"? Are the producers of the Blair Witch Project subject to criticism if some people believe them? Do the producers of the mayfly documentary need to address the fact that some "documentaries" are full of lies and/or are totally fake?

I know my answers and I'll share the first: the Endgame producers would, I imagine, not give a second thought to the flat Earth documentary and would, again just me imagining, not even consider it a part of what they do, even if they do use CGI and actors, etc.

So, lots of questions I'm curious to get opinions on but I'll finish with one last one: Do mentalists consider John Edwards to be performing mentalism? Because, if so, then I will never want to call myself a mentalist. That would be a family I don't want to belong to.
Mac_Stone
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami, FL
1208 Posts

Profile of Mac_Stone
Quote:
On Oct 22, 2020, MC Mirak wrote:
Do mentalists consider John Edwards to be performing mentalism?


You are venturing FAR outside of the original intent of this thread. Few on here really seem to have understood the OP's intent.

Before Derren Brown the idea of a psychological l illusionist did not exist or was at the very least hidden in obscurity. Derren is generally credited with having created, or at least popularized, a NEW mode of performing mentalism.

The question the OP is asking is have we reached the limit of possible modes with which to perform mentalism or is there possibly some new mode currently hiding in obscurity waiting to enter the zeitgeist?

It may well be that what is new harkens back to what is old in the way that Blaine modernized the very genesis of magic and mentalism with his Urban Shamanism.
MC Mirak
View Profile
Regular user
190 Posts

Profile of MC Mirak
I didn't bring up John Edwards, somebody else did. I was answering the OP's question about "a different premise of mentalism, a different perspective?", somebody else brought up John Edwards, and I was curious why his name would be brought up and asked the question that put a fly up your butt or something.

I'm sorry my response didn't meet your approval. Not really, I'm just sorry I had any interaction with you. Won't happen again. But it did answer the question whether I'd want to be considered a mentalist, if a sweet guy like you is, count me out.

Dang, what a place this Café is. Smile
Mac_Stone
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami, FL
1208 Posts

Profile of Mac_Stone
Quote:
On Oct 22, 2020, MC Mirak wrote:
I'm sorry my response didn't meet your approval.


Great. I'm glad this thread can get back on track, thanks.
Alexxander
View Profile
Elite user
Frankfurt, Germany
421 Posts

Profile of Alexxander
@MC Mirak, I'm sorry you felt that way, I'm sure that Mac_Stone didn't intend to offend you, I think he was just trying to bring the thread back to the original question, it surely wasn't a personal attack.



Thank you Mac_Stone, you said it better than I could.
And yes, I do also feel like some people did not exactly understand what I was getting at.
I know the standard premises and standard approaches to perform mentalism.
I am not looking for ways to feel better about them.
For many people, they work great, but they don't feel exciting to me anymore.


The two question I'm essentially trying to answer for myself is:
Why am I able to know what people are thinking?
Why am I showing it to an audience?

Philemon, I really like your premise.
You made a deal with the devil and collect other souls for him in exchange for immortality.
YES! That's awesome.
It answers both questions perfectly.
Dylenium
View Profile
New user
54 Posts

Profile of Dylenium
I literally just now had this idea, so this is more brain storming then well thought out.
Usually mentalists state that they havent done any research on the participant in advance. But what if that is your premise? You are a research god and with just one minute on the facebook feed of someone can tell them about their personality and even what they do next and think next. Quite similar like the targeted ads from google that show you where to buy a new refrigerator a day before the one you own breaks (I just made that example up but you know what I mean).
The pro side is that its hyper believable. The con side is that you loose almost all the mystery and maybe even get your audience pretty anxious (Did he hack me? What else did he find? Does he know what ***Videos I watch? Will he tell my wife? etc.)
I don't think this is a premise anyone would actually choose, but it is for sure different then everything else.

Dylan
Alexxander
View Profile
Elite user
Frankfurt, Germany
421 Posts

Profile of Alexxander
I like this idea!

I think it could work, if you push this premise to absolute ridiculousness, and revealing things that would be obviously impossible to research.
Mac_Stone
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami, FL
1208 Posts

Profile of Mac_Stone
WitchDocChris
View Profile
Inner circle
York, PA
2581 Posts

Profile of WitchDocChris
Here's a radical thought: Don't lie.

Just use genuine skills and present them in an interesting and mysterious way.
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Mindpro
View Profile
Eternal Order
10132 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
There ya go! Quite simple isn't it? No need for all this mental runaround and magican's thinking.
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9007 Posts

Profile of funsway
??? magicians I know aways tell the truth.

"I am going to create an illusion of an inexplicable event using artifice, guile, skill and psychology. Then I do just that.

When performing as a Mentalist I also tell exactly what I will do, and the follow through. Same thinking either way.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Mac_Stone
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami, FL
1208 Posts

Profile of Mac_Stone
Quote:
On Oct 23, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
There ya go! Quite simple isn't it? No need for all this mental runaround and magican's thinking.


Would you describe Derren's performances as mental runaround and magician's thinking?

Claiming to use psychology and body language to know which hand a coin is in is not all that dissimilar than claiming to use AI driven analytics to predetermine a person's thoughts, decisions, and actions.
Mindpro
View Profile
Eternal Order
10132 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Quote:
On Oct 23, 2020, Mac_Stone wrote:
Would you describe Derren's performances as mental runaround and magician's thinking?


Absolutely!
Mac_Stone
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami, FL
1208 Posts

Profile of Mac_Stone
Fair enough. It does seem to have worked quite successfully for him...
Mindpro
View Profile
Eternal Order
10132 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
Oh, I agree...for him. Not so much for all the poseurs and wannabees he created.

You said "Derren is generally credited with having created, or at least popularized, a NEW mode of performing mentalism."
This is true within magic circles but in other mental arts (and some pro-level entertainment circles) he is credited with damaging the art and science and bringing it down to a diminished level.
Mindpro
View Profile
Eternal Order
10132 Posts

Profile of Mindpro
I have just been sitting back watching what could have been a great, informative and developmental thread, go down the dumper with more examples of typical magician’s thinking and mentalities what they think is mentalism.

Here are the observational highlights as this has gone off the tracks…

“This is what I love about David Blaine. He just does. “ - Blaine, a mentalist? lol

"psychological illusions" (translate = magician/magic)

"The human species once had many natural abilities that would by considered extraordinary today. In return for a bigger brain and predictive abilities tied with memory, our senses of smell, hearing and touch became less acute….” (mental runaround saying/meaning nothing)

"...one day I could manipulate certain elements. And I could also say it came to me under moments of extreme pressure and concentration. (more mumbo jumbo that the magician thinks is clever and would convince audiences. He has convinced himself and since he thinks he’s clever and the the smartest in the room, it’ll convince others - again, more typical magician’s thinking)

Ormond McGill was a magician (and hypnotist)

Philemon - “I’ve sold my soul to the devil in exchange for these bizarre powers. As long as I continue to trick my participants into playing my games and thus collecting their souls, I will continue to live forever. - This is better than most oft the cockamamy premises many here are putting out there with body language, NLP, etc.

“Edwards, Sylvia Brown, etc - -Avengers: Engame, the Blair Witch Project, a documentary from PBS on the lifecycle of mayflies, and a "documentary" on how the world is flat. Lol, we’re getting closer now, lol.

Then of course there’s the “a research god and with just one minute on the facebook feed of someone can tell them about their personality and even what they do next and think next”
Yes, that’s what audience, promoters and bookers want and will accept as mentalism.

“magicians I know aways tell the truth.” - More delusion.
“"I am going to create an illusion of…..” Yep, more magic

“If we are talking about "psychics" taking people's money” - We’re not, no one ever mentioned this, yet in almost every discussion here on mentalism someone inevitably brings this up.

Finally…
Alexxander - “To be honest, I think I do no longer care if my performances can be classified as mentalism or not.

I am interested in using the techniques and tools of mentalism to create a different kind of fiction than "I can read your mind".

I used to be super strict about the distinction between mentalism, mental magic and magic, as I learned it from the greats in mentalism, and on this forum. But I am tired of it. “


Exactly how and where it ends for most coming to mentalism from or through magic. Precisely how it tends to play out for most. Easier to bail than commit to get through the process to come out on the other side. Not worth it to most magicians.


There were some great and valuable insights that can be taken if one is willing to sift through all the noise and nonsense….

David Thiel “I cannot for the life of me understand how having an understanding of body language, NLP etc can help you divine a WORD or a NUMBER or any thought that isn't a feeling. (absolutely true - only in magicians land would seem a possibility, lol)

WitchDocChris Here's a radical thought: Don't lie.
Just use genuine skills and present them in an interesting and mysterious way.

Alexxander “The two question I'm essentially trying to answer for myself is:
Why am I able to know what people are thinking?
Why am I showing it to an audience?

MC Mirak - “I don't subscribe to most of the stereotypes around performing as listed by the OP. I guess, after reading a bunch here, I would be a magician who likes to perform mental magic.

Mr.Mindbender - “One popular moniker for a mentalist is a "mystery performer", but where is the mystery in explaining your (supposed) method to the audience? If you truly were using body language and NLP to accomplish your effects, would you blatantly announce it!?”

Mr. Wollery - “Any discussion of the different ways to present mentalism also edges toward the subject of how to define what is and is not mentalism in the first place. I think ultimately the question is what do you want to say with your performance? Do you want to say that you can read minds? Do you want to say you can read body language? Do you want to say you can get information from the Universal Mind? Do you want to say that your invisible friend was watching over their shoulder and whispered it in your ear? What is the story you are telling the audience?”


To me no one is hitting on the one thing that should be of most concern on a foundational level. For those here that are just hobbyists and amateurs, I am not talking about you. I am talking about anyone doing this part or full-time with the intend of earning income from their performance, and having a marketable and sellable show for profit. Where someone is paying to see or have your mentalism performance. All the rest is just for fun and self-fulfillment. But for those I’m talking to you all seem to be missing a main and crucial point that can steer and determine all of this…

Mr. Wollery was close or getting there.

Let the show continue…
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9007 Posts

Profile of funsway
What is really amazing, Mindpro, is your apparent fascination with self -
that by posturing yourself as against some rephrased post, and then offering your opinions as fact,
somehow elevates these opinions to higher certainty.

Nope - still just opinions with no shred of evidence to support your 'self-proclaimed" superiority of view.

But, let me predict. Next year you will repeat a pattern of attacking phrases out of context and suggest that some people are moving closer to something but not quite there.

One statement is worth pondering - "with the intend of earning income from their performance, and having a marketable and sellable show for profit."

Please explain why this should be a standard for defining Mentalism or any other activity. You put down - "Self-fulfillment?" Why do you want to earn money?
Why do you wish folks to hang on your opinions as a specialized truth?
Why limit other people's options to just "hobbiest, amateur or 'intent on making money'?" You just don't get it.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Alexxander
View Profile
Elite user
Frankfurt, Germany
421 Posts

Profile of Alexxander
Mindpro, what is the main and crucial point everybody is missing here?
j100taylor
View Profile
Inner circle
1161 Posts

Profile of j100taylor
Quote:
On Oct 24, 2020, Alexxander wrote:
Mindpro, what is the main and crucial point everybody is missing here?


Noooo! Why?
Lakewood, Ohio
Djin
View Profile
Regular user
157 Posts

Profile of Djin
I'm not a pro. That said I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

How far you can go, what you can get your audience to believe, depends on you and your audience. People will swallow hook line and sinker that which reinforces what they already think they know. If the body language and psychology approach is in line with their beliefs, you can push that as far as your skill allows. If they believe that their tinfoil hat is blocking CIA mind control rays, then you may get them on board with your recently regained suppressed memories of having been a child MK ULTRA test subject that left you with these amazing abilities. There are people who want to hear about moonbeam power, enhanced brainwaves, demonic possession. All of it. The trick is twofold. Your ability to perform and your ability to "spot" the audience who is picking up what you're laying down.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Alternative premises for mentalism (16 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.21 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL