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Kevin Janise New user 68 Posts |
Here's an interesting article I came across in the Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology where they used the Cross Cut Force as part of an experiment. The results were quite surprising since I never was really impressed by the force since it seems obvious to me what is going on.
And these results are with some researchers performing it in an experimental way and not necessarily in an entertaining way which I would suspect would be even more successful. Article Title: "The apparent action causation: Using a magician forcing technique to investigate our illusory sense of agency over the outcome of our choices" Link: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10......20932916 Kevin |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
Although my brain now hurts and I think my eyes are bleeding from reading that full report, I think in the end it tells us what we already know. "Magicians tend to overthink everything". It was interesting to see the facts backed by actual science though. I might look up the "Flustration Count" study too (one day).
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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ipe Special user 513 Posts |
Hi Kevin, thank your for this very interesting article! I suggest to read at least the chapter "General discussion": it is the most interesting part for us.
I really love the Cross Cut Force so I'm not surprise about some of the results. But there are some unexpected discoveries. Quote:
Results from Experiment 1 showed that participants were unable to differentiate between an outcome they controlled and one that was forced upon them. In other words, participants felt as much control over their outcome card when this card was forced, as when it was the card they themselves selected. Very few (two of 30) participants understood that the card was forced and that their action of freely cutting the deck had no impact on the outcome. [...] The experiment, therefore, confirmed that the Criss-Cross force is a simple yet effective way to provide an illusory sense of agency over the outcome of an action. Not surprise for me here. Quote:
In Experiment 2, we investigated whether misdirection was the key to the success of this force. Our survey on magicians revealed that misdirection in the form of diverting attention away from the cards and creating a time delay before forcing the card should be the most important factors driving the illusion. However, our results do not confirm this view. Attentional misdirection and a time delay had no impact on participants’ awareness of the force. These results were truly unexpected and confirm that magicians do not always know why their tricks work. Our previous research (Kuhn et al., 2020) has shown that magicians are good at estimating the effectiveness of a force, but their intuitions about its mechanism are not necessarily correct. A more scientific approach to the art of magic can illustrate why their tricks work, which in turn might help them develop more refined and more powerful deceptive principles (Kuhn, 2019; Rensink & Kuhn, 2015). Our results also show that distraction is not necessary to experience an illusory sense of control over a simple event sequence. Most of our participants failed to correctly remember the exact event sequence even without time delay or attentional distraction. This suggests that even when we are paying attention to an event, we can fall victim to an illusory sense of control over it. This was the big surprise to me. The Cross Cut Force is so deceptive that time-misdirection is not necessary! Quote:
In the final experiment, we tried to break the illusion by explicitly demonstrating that the chosen card was independent of their action. The back of each card was numbered, making it obvious that they were choosing the top card. Rather surprisingly, even without time, or attentional misdirection, the force remained successful. The Criss-Cross procedure resulted in a significantly greater illusory sense of agency over the outcome, than when participants are simply asked to cut to a card and asked to select the top card from the original pack. These results suggest that the Criss-Cross event procedure itself is largely responsible for the illusion. Even without time-misdirection, even with numbered backs, the Criss Cross Force works. What a formidable technique we have!
What would a real mindreader do?
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Haruspex New user 62 Posts |
The Cross Cut force works for sure, that's why its been discussed in basically every book on card magic in the last century.
The experiment has one advantage going for it: the participants are not biased. They just followed a procedure ( cutting a deck and taking a card) and where asked some questions about it, after everyting was done. Now most magicians don't meet spectators in this context, unless people don't know you are a magician when you start to perform the effect. I just wonder what the result of the experiment would be if its done exactly the same, only with 4 words added to it. instead of: " Please cut the deck " it would be "I am a magician, please cut the deck" |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2020, Haruspex wrote: Yeah, this is a big point. Without knowing the context we honestly have no clue as to the participant's mindset during the whole thing. It's the difference between having somebody random at the poker game shuffling the cards, versus introducing Richard Turner and having HIM shuffle the cards. The set up has a huge influence on the perception. I also think it's a bit reductive to suggest that the experiment suggests magicians don't know how their methods are able to succeed. There's a lot of work done on this specific principle, including some people who've found effective ways of eliminating the time misdirection altogether. Or, rather, I know of at least one diabolical method, and even though it's technically in the underground of a certain region in the States, I'm not so naive as to think I'm the only magician outside that region who knows about it. I'm also not so naive as to claim that nobody else has found other ways to handle the issue.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2020, Haruspex wrote: Agreed; Nobody was burning their hands. It's amazing that researchers waste everyone's time to carefully set up experiments to produce incorrect conclusions.
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2020, Mr Salk wrote: Well, technically, burning the magician's hands in a crosscut force wouldn't produce much. That said, if the person involved is known to be a magician, it's possible that all the other aspects would come under scrutiny.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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qkeli Special user paris,france 792 Posts |
Please check out Roberto Giobbi’s finess on the Cross cut force, it brings this force to a new level !!
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ipe Special user 513 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 16, 2020, qkeli wrote: Where can we find it? It is not in the Card College.
What would a real mindreader do?
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ipe Special user 513 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 15, 2020, Haruspex wrote: From the article: Quote:
The experimenter was sitting at a table in the university Caféteria, with the deck of cards already on the table. The experiment was presented as a study about magic tricks and decision-making. It looks to me they informed the participants it is a magic tricks. And the context of the experiments, a Caféteria, is a natural (and casual) environment for magic tricks, rather than an impersonal laboratory. I think a magician can perform the Cross Cut Force in a more effective and deceptive way for the following reasons: 1) Experimenters don't have the knowledge and the skill to manage the misdirection as a magician does. 2) Experimenters didn't use subtleties like the ones from Michael Skinner, Max Maven, John Bannon and others. They just perform a minimal version of the force. 3) Experimenters didn't shuffle the deck before the procedure, so the participants were aware the experimenters knew the position of the cards. 4) The effect consists only in the Cross Cut Force. Nothing more. So all the participants' attention is on this little procedure. 5) After the pratecipants experienced the Cross Cut Force in isolation, they were asked how free they felt about cutting the deck wherever they wanted and how much control they felt they had over the card they selected. Of course, these questions can cause doubt to anyway even with the most fair procedure. 6) As already said, even without time-misdirection, even with numbered backs (!), the Criss Cross Force worked.
What would a real mindreader do?
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
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The experimenter was sitting at a table in the university Caféteria, with the deck of cards already on the table. The experiment was presented as a study about magic tricks and decision-making. It's still not quite enough to establish the context. The usual underlying subtext when a magician is doing something is "you're not going to know how this happened". That can trigger suspicion from the get-go. Presenting this as a study might lead people to unquestioningly say "Ok, I cut the cards, now what?" Whether or not the person involved is presenting themselves as a bona fide magician is really important.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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qkeli Special user paris,france 792 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 16, 2020, ipe wrote: You’ll find it on his last dvd set Masterclss, he performed it at the sessions in front of everyone |
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qkeli Special user paris,france 792 Posts |
Masterclass dvd set
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MGordonB Loyal user Toronto, Canada 279 Posts |
A university Caféteria, by its nature, would limit the types of subjects participating in the study
Would they get different results if they tried the experiment in different settings, where different age/demographic groups were tested. What if they tried this with elementary school students? In a mall food court? A church group? A workplace Caféteria? Etc. |
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Kevin Janise New user 68 Posts |
Here are a couple of other articles from The Jerx on tests of different forces and the results. In this one they said it was in the context of doing research for magicians, not necessarily "I am a magician.". But it does provide more context to the spectators and may make them more skeptical. It isn't a scientific study but the results are interesting.
Sets the context https://www.thejerx.com/blog/2017/10/8/the-force-awakens The results https://www.thejerx.com/blog/2017/10/8/the-force-unleashed Kevin |
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 999 Posts |
Very interesting read, but I also agree that "I am a magician, please cut the deck" would generate different results than this study. The experiment is presented as "...a study about magic tricks and decision-making", but there is no indication that the subject needs to care about what "their card" is. In fact, they don't even look at "their card". If the subject is told to remember their card and subsequently witnesses an impossible effect involving it, I'd bet the sense of agency and feeling of freedom numbers would drop significantly.
On another note, even if it turns out that time misdirection has no effect on the effectiveness of the sequence, it is still necessary. Without time misdirection the whole sequence is completely unnatural -- you cut the deck, "mark the cut", only to immediately remove the cards you just placed there? The time misdirection should be constructed so as to give motivation for criss-crossing the packets to begin with. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
The experiment is indeed far from perfect (likewise the Jerx one) - but I think it is still useful to try to explore these matters empirically. It is far too easy for any group (eg magicians) to create a "received wisdom" that may included some unjustified assumptions. Or simply some that have become out-of-date.
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7PSh4pdG8
I think this is a brilliant example of how to use the CCF. Crucial psychological details for me are - 1. He does NOT immediately place one packet on top of the other. He lets both packets just sit there for 10 seconds while he talks. 2. He does NOT comment when he crosses the packets. (Nothing is so guilty to me as a magician saying the awful words "let's mark the cut".) 3. There is quite a long presentation in which he raises the red herring explanation that it is all about tells. The first time I saw this it fooled me completely. Only when I watched it again did I realise he was using such an "obvious" (?) technique |
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JonHackl Regular user Western Australia 198 Posts |
I love that video. I also like doing something like a CC in the hands where the spectator tells me to stop while I'm riffling, then I swing and hold the cut staggered and talk for a moment. The cool thing about doing it in the hand is that they're suspicious when the cards are in my hands, so they're burning hard. All that focus on watching to catch me making a move means they're distracting themselves from the discrepancy; they do the misdirection for me.
Regarding the research, I wouldn't bristle at the idea that magicians may not always know why what they're doing works. It's probably true sometimes, at least with some magicians and some techniques. But the fact that the experiment doesn't really replicate a performance scenario certainly weakens that conclusion in this case.
"Magic is the only kind of entertainment where 90% of the audience is trying to ruin it for themselves." - Pete Holmes
https://www.lybrary.com/ivy-p-925586.html |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 25, 2020, Nikodemus wrote: Why do you feel these details are crucial?
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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