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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Second & Bottom Deal Dvd (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Hood
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I have always had a hard time learning a second deal or bottom deal. Can anyone recommend a DVD or download to learn both of these. I do have books teaching but need a little help with the visuals.
Thank you
Rachmaninov
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Go for the Steve Forte dvd series to see the moves done. Purchase his set on gambling sleights and you will have everything you need.
disgruntledpuffin
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For the cost, I have yet to see Jason England's downloads on these moves equalled. Not only is he an expert practitioner, he is the one of the best teachers in magic when it comes to imparting information clearly. They are available from www.theory11.com

Jack
Hood
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Fantastic, thank you.
Kjellstrom
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Richard Turner has a dvd with bottom deals. He is one of the greatest with a deck of cards.
Gennovense
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Jason England is the way to go. The book of Steve Forte is too expensive if you just want to learn the second deal and bottom deal.
Merc Man
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In answer to your question Hood. I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of magicians that I've seen over the years who can execute a convincing Second Deal; or indeed, even a semi-convincing Bottom Deal.

Ironically, a number of well-known magicians appear to have convinced themselves that they are good at it (I'll mention no names, as I'm not here for a fight).

It's personal choice of course - BUT I've never seen the point of learning either. I'm not averse to practice - far from it. However, I've just never seen the benefit of spending months (even years) getting to a destination when there are faster, simpler modes of travel. Life is just too short! Moreover, most of my work in the Real World over the years has been performed standing - whereby either deal would be pretty much pointless.

Your call obviously - but my advice would be, unless there are absolutely no alternatives to achieve what you are aiming for, then save your money......and don't waste your precious time.

Just my opinion. Don't shoot me for it (although I know at least one person on here is loading his gun).
Barry Allen

Joe Riding (1932 - 2005). "I still miss you mate".
https://magicweek.co.uk/magic_articles/article_joe_riding.htm
Claudio
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If you want to perform gambling effects, the 2nd deal will be very useful and it does not take years to be efficient in striking 2nds for magic purpose.

Here's Bernad Billis while standing using repeated second deals to force a card. Starts at 2m10. It's actually very versatile once you can perform a good 2nd deal.

[/quote]
Rachmaninov
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There is an excellent video « la magie des cartes vol 2 » by Bernard Bilis on which you can see a lot of gambling sleights well executed.
Rachmaninov
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The Steve Forte book would be indicated to learn a lot more than just seconds and bottoms.
Rachmaninov
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Merc man, a lot of very proficient men having mastered those sleights are cheaters. You will never see them…
Merc Man
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Quote:
On Jan 29, 2021, Rachmaninov wrote:
Merc man, a lot of very proficient men having mastered those sleights are cheaters. You will never see them…

You've supported what I am saying.

There's a world of difference between a professional card cheat; and a magician using false deals.

That said, it's hardly surprising that I haven't noticed a professional card cheat, as I've never sat in on a card game! I'm not sad enough to want to gamble. I was however, quite friendly with a 3 Card Trick (Find the Lady) Operator many years ago; who's technique blew anything I've seen magicians butcher, out of the water.

However, I would imagine that a Mechanic in the Real World would indeed be somewhat more proficient with their sleight of hand than a 'card magician'.

That said, the vast majority of magicians that I've seen can't even perform a natural, convincing Double Turnover; so I'm hardly surprised!

I have to go back to my original point. There's more magicians who fool themselves with their ability at Bottom Dealing, than there are that actually fool audiences.

However, I have watched (in person/live performance) magicians using false deals in their performance. Apart from a UK guy called Kevin Reay (who I met at The Magic Circle around 1985), I've not ever been fooled by their false deals - particularly their Subway.

Sadly, most people have probably never even heard of Kevin Reay:
https://youtu.be/K_bFD2-McGU

As for the Billis clip Claudio. Apart from cringing when he decided to lick his thumb before dealing the cards, the camera was clearly too far away to judge his technique - so it was hardly evidence of his competence.
Barry Allen

Joe Riding (1932 - 2005). "I still miss you mate".
https://magicweek.co.uk/magic_articles/article_joe_riding.htm
Claudio
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2021, Merc Man wrote:
As for the Billis clip Claudio. Apart from cringing when he decided to lick his thumb before dealing the cards, the camera was clearly too far away to judge his technique - so it was hardly evidence of his competence.

Barry, I think we’re talking at cross-purpose. From my point of view, BB’s 2nd deal is good enough to fool a non-magician public. He performed it one foot away from their eyes and no one questioned it. Whether it would fool you or pass muster in a card game is another matter which is not relevant. Would an Elmsley Count, regardless of who's performing it, fool you?

On the other hand, it’s a myth to think that 2nd dealer cheats can deal with minuscule briefs like 1/32th of an inch. Real cheats want to make sure they don’t get a hang up while dealing; furthermore, dealing with a tiny brief is not the way regular people/gamblers deal cards. It's all a magician thing.

I also think you’re being very hard on fellow magicians.
Merc Man
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On Jan 30, 2021, Claudio wrote:
I also think you’re being very hard on fellow magicians.

You might think that - but isn't life about us all having individual opinions?

In my experience, the vast majority of magicians that I've met over 40 years are pretty talentless; and most definitely incompetent as 'entertainers'. Their main aim in magic appears to be to buy every latest brainfart for the sake of it. Yet they'll never find time to drill down and perfect the basics. Doubt it? Look no further than the busiest sections of this forum.

Sadly, whilst they're forever patted on the back and told 'they're doing a good job' (by others who are similarly inept) then they'll never improve. Nor indeed will the Art of Magic. I had broad enough shoulders as a kid to get regularly torn to shreds by a guy named Bobby Bernard. It made me try harder and improve. These days I guess, there are just too many snowflakes; coupled with not enough people saying it as they see it.

Look no further than the BS around Erdnase. People have countless times upon this forum (and elsewhere), stated how wonderful the book is. For example, how it's a great source for learning Second and Bottom Deals. The reality is they've probably opened the book countless times - but couldn't pull off a decent false deal from that book if their life depended upon it. Search Youtube for Erdnase - tell me how many people have posted themselves doing anything of any weight from it other than the 'Erdnase Change' (which is actually incorrect - as I believe it's the 'Houdini Change').

I'll stick by my guns on this. I truly believe that there are enough 'moves' for a magician to use to replace a Second or a Bottom Deal. To perfect either takes considerable time; time that would be better spent actually working upon the presentation of what they are trying to achieve.

Just my point of view.
Barry Allen

Joe Riding (1932 - 2005). "I still miss you mate".
https://magicweek.co.uk/magic_articles/article_joe_riding.htm
Rachmaninov
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I agree with you Merc man, but working on a difficult sleight just for the seek of doing it and improving it slowly, without any prétention to show it or use it in our work, is a worth achieving goal.
Rachmaninov
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I think that cheaters are great in sleight of hand, but more than that, they are expert at doing just one or two sleights at the right time in an entire evening.
disgruntledpuffin
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On Jan 30, 2021, Rachmaninov wrote:
I agree with you Merc man, but working on a difficult sleight just for the seek of doing it and improving it slowly, without any prétention to show it or use it in our work, is a worth achieving goal.


Well said.

Lots of folk here forget that some people do magic solely for the love of it. That can mean buying all the new releases just to appreciate the cleverness of them, and maybe show them at the weekly club night. It can mean practicing difficult sleight of hand for no reason other than the challenge. It can mean collecting props or books just because you like them. It's all valid. None of it is a waste of time.

No one has the right to tell you how to enjoy your hobby. You don't have to be a performer in magic any more than you have to be an actor to enjoy film.
Merc Man
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On Jan 31, 2021, disgruntledpuffin wrote:
Lots of folk here forget that No one has the right to tell you how to enjoy your hobby. You don't have to be a performer in magic any more than you have to be an actor to enjoy film.

If you are referring to me in that opening sentence, then I wasn't telling anyone how to 'enjoy their hobby'. As I said......"just my point of view".

I was simply giving advice and putting across my view - as a 'Magician trying to help another Magician'.

My point was there's got to be more to life than committing hours of your life to something that you'll never use; but if Second or Bottom dealing was going to be studied to achieve a magic effect, then there are many other alternatives. However, if someone is hell bent upon mastering these moves just for their own satisfaction, then fair play to them. I won't be losing any sleep over it.
Barry Allen

Joe Riding (1932 - 2005). "I still miss you mate".
https://magicweek.co.uk/magic_articles/article_joe_riding.htm
Rachmaninov
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Merc man, are you a professional magician ? It would explain your point of view, essentially based on effectiveness and practicability.
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Jan 27, 2021, Hood wrote:
I have always had a hard time learning a second deal or bottom deal. Can anyone recommend a DVD or download to learn both of these. I do have books teaching but need a little help with the visuals.
Thank you


It would help everyone here to know the WHY behind your desire. Are you wanting to use them covertly as part of a magic effect, or are you wanting to do a gambling-themed performance where you are basically "showing off" the moves?

It has been stated here, and I believe correctly, that neither move is a requirement for a magician, but there is also nothing wrong with you wanting to learn them and add them to your arsenal of sleights.

So what is it? What's your end game? Knowing that will help us to better answer the question.
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