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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricks & Effects Ľ Ľ SUMMIT by Patrick Kun and Abstract Effects ("It's the trick of the year for me." -Ekaterina) (159 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Lonnie_Lyerla
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Magician: picture yourself as a playing card.

Spec: ok.

Magician: you got one?

Spec: yes.

Magician: what is it?

Spec: 2 of clubs.

Magician: oh, ok. What face card do you see yourself as?

Spec: king.

Magician: red one or black?

Spec: Red.

Magician: I knew youíd say that. So for the first time ever, whatís the name of your card? 🤥

Spec: 😒 king of Hearts

Magician: well look at that. Thereís a king of hearts inside the sharpie.

Spec: can I see the card?

Magician: And for my next trick, the king of hearts vanishes.
Jared
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I feel that it's important for us (as consumers) to call-out blatant false advertising whenever we see it. Hopefully, the magic producers will get the message load and clear that we're not going to continue buying these products until they become more truthful with their trailers...Let's not forgot, that years ago we used to buy magic from brick and mortar magic shops where we could actually see live product demonstrations in-person before purchasing. IMO the advertising trailers should be mimicking the same experience. And if they're afraid to do so because people might learn the method, then perhaps they shouldn't be releasing the product in the first-place.
videoman
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, ArtIn wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the idea of showing a isolated single card inside a pen that doesnít write or stopped writing.
This is what I do with Bliss and Bill to Marker and people really like it.



Having their card or bill appear in a Sharpie makes sense in those two effects because it is vanishing and then reappearing in an impossible location, plus the card or bill is almost always signed to make it seem really impossible. Having what is essentially your prediction simply rolled up in a Sharpie makes very little sense.

The gag that the pen doesnít write simply because you apparently stuck a card in there for no good reason seems silly and removes the underlying logic that makes the gag work in the first place. Seems like most people donít understand that.

AFA the concept of picturing yourself as a playing card, this seems like a desperate attempt to allow you to say that no equivoque is used in your ad copy. I think many people, especially males, might think of the Ace of Spades since that is a very popular thought of card anyway.

Do you really believe that the premise of using the gag that the pen wonít write (which is the ONLY aspect that separates this effect from many similar ones) because oh look there is a card in it, is so entertaining that you would choose this effect over something like Inferno which is an effect that makes absolutely perfect sense and is self-contained within a tiny matchbox?
Itís always great to have different options but I just canít see the logic in that, but to each their own.
ArtIn
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, videoman wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, ArtIn wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the idea of showing a isolated single card inside a pen that doesnít write or stopped writing.
This is what I do with Bliss and Bill to Marker and people really like it.



Having their card or bill appear in a Sharpie makes sense in those two effects because it is vanishing and then reappearing in an impossible location, plus the card or bill is almost always signed to make it seem really impossible. Having what is essentially your prediction simply rolled up in a Sharpie makes very little sense.

The gag that the pen doesnít write simply because you apparently stuck a card in there for no good reason seems silly and removes the underlying logic that makes the gag work in the first place. Seems like most people donít understand that.

AFA the concept of picturing yourself as a playing card, this seems like a desperate attempt to allow you to say that no equivoque is used in your ad copy. I think many people, especially males, might think of the Ace of Spades since that is a very popular thought of card anyway.

Do you really believe that the premise of using the gag that the pen wonít write (which is the ONLY aspect that separates this effect from many similar ones) because oh look there is a card in it, is so entertaining that you would choose this effect over something like Inferno which is an effect that makes absolutely perfect sense and is self-contained within a tiny matchbox?
Itís always great to have different options but I just canít see the logic in that, but to each their own.


Oh I didnít defended Summit but only the idea of having a card inside a pen.
My comment (you partly quoted above) was my answer to pegasus.
It was just to point out that creativity is always welcome and not every prediction has to be in form of a invisible deck (which I will always love).
Inferno is a superb and high quality product and the routine that comes with it is much more justified, I agree.
I wouldnít recommend Summit to anybody.

Btw. I used the premise of the non writing pen with Bliss and Bill to Marker very often and it works great.
It underlines the magic moment perfectly. The premise is very obvious and not original to Summit.
goldeneye007
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, videoman wrote:

Having what is essentially your prediction simply rolled up in a Sharpie makes very little sense.

The gag that the pen doesnít write simply because you apparently stuck a card in there for no good reason seems silly and removes the underlying logic that makes the gag work in the first place. Seems like most people donít understand that.


Please let's just make it clear that the above is your personal opinion Smile
Ben
UnbiasedMagicReviews
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Quote:
On Feb 9, 2021, goldeneye007 wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 9, 2021, UnbiasedMagicReviews wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 8, 2021, goldeneye007 wrote:
No reason to be sorry! That actually proves that quite a few people on here still think she is relevant...


Has she ever given anything a negative review? She sure seems to be more of a promoter and not a reviewer. Show me any real negative review she made, where she trashes the product completely. Exactly!


Interesting - so to be a (good?) reviewer you have to give negative reviews and trash products from time to time? Besides that's not even my point: any review, giving a good or bad opinion, remains an opinion: it's not because I hear/read a good review that I will embrace that opinion; HOWEVER I find that reading/hearing a review, any review, helps me decide whether that particular product will be good for me or not and that's what's the most helpful, not whether the reviewer praises or trashes the product, that's actually close to irrelevant for me. What matters to me is everything else (the description, the thoughts around it etc.) the reviewer has to say about the product.

But hey - you're obviously entitled to your opinion! If you think a (good) reviewer has to give negative reviews from time to time, sure! However hearing different people's opinion, listening to different reviewers works for me and I find it helpful, so it's irrelevant whether I can "show you any real negative review she made". However if it's of any consolation I obviously am not purchasing every single product she gives a good review of, just as I'm not purchasing every single product any reviewer gives a good review of, just as I'm not disregarding every single product any reviewer gives a bad review of.

PS: by the way, not related at all, but thank you for mentioning the Razor wallet section in the penguin monthly issue with the routine involving 2 spectators (and 2 numbers), really love it!



The whole reason I bring it up is because most of these magic reviews are not from real magic reviewers. They are magic promoters. There's a real difference there. I would argue that if you don't see some harshly negative reviews from time to time then you are NOT watching a real magic reviewer.

There are many magic products that are complete rubbish. Everyone knows it but not everyone is brave enough to come out and say it out loud.

You can also tell because most of those magic promoters can't even demo the effect in their own hands because they literally just unboxed it.
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I buy/review magic to help you make better decisions
Gaz Lawrence
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The thing is if you are getting given magic I would find that easy to review and would say exactly how I see it good or bad even it was released by my best Buddy . Unfortunately a lot of people are scared to do that . However if I am reviewing magic that I have personally bought I would have done a decent amount of homework before purchasing so itís obvious the majority would probably be more favourable otherwise if it didnít suit my style etc etc I wouldnít have bought it in the first place . I will happily review any effects I buy or get given and praise it or rip it to shreds as necessary and I donít see whatís so hard in giving your honest opinions and the reasons why Gaz 😊
dirtyfoucault
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, UnbiasedMagicReviews wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 9, 2021, goldeneye007 wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 9, 2021, UnbiasedMagicReviews wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 8, 2021, goldeneye007 wrote:
No reason to be sorry! That actually proves that quite a few people on here still think she is relevant...


Has she ever given anything a negative review? She sure seems to be more of a promoter and not a reviewer. Show me any real negative review she made, where she trashes the product completely. Exactly!


Interesting - so to be a (good?) reviewer you have to give negative reviews and trash products from time to time? Besides that's not even my point: any review, giving a good or bad opinion, remains an opinion: it's not because I hear/read a good review that I will embrace that opinion; HOWEVER I find that reading/hearing a review, any review, helps me decide whether that particular product will be good for me or not and that's what's the most helpful, not whether the reviewer praises or trashes the product, that's actually close to irrelevant for me. What matters to me is everything else (the description, the thoughts around it etc.) the reviewer has to say about the product.

But hey - you're obviously entitled to your opinion! If you think a (good) reviewer has to give negative reviews from time to time, sure! However hearing different people's opinion, listening to different reviewers works for me and I find it helpful, so it's irrelevant whether I can "show you any real negative review she made". However if it's of any consolation I obviously am not purchasing every single product she gives a good review of, just as I'm not purchasing every single product any reviewer gives a good review of, just as I'm not disregarding every single product any reviewer gives a bad review of.

PS: by the way, not related at all, but thank you for mentioning the Razor wallet section in the penguin monthly issue with the routine involving 2 spectators (and 2 numbers), really love it!



The whole reason I bring it up is because most of these magic reviews are not from real magic reviewers. They are magic promoters. There's a real difference there. I would argue that if you don't see some harshly negative reviews from time to time then you are NOT watching a real magic reviewer.

There are many magic products that are complete rubbish. Everyone knows it but not everyone is brave enough to come out and say it out loud.

You can also tell because most of those magic promoters can't even demo the effect in their own hands because they literally just unboxed it.


Spot on!

I've never understood the apparent fear to give bad reviews. If it's because they're concerned about damaging relationships with magic producers and suppliers then the whole model of is messed up. Music reviewers trash albums and singles but still get sent music to review. Film critics still get invited to press screenings. The provision of a thing to review should never, explicitly or implicitly, be a transaction in exchange for a favourable review. If that's where magic review channels are at they should be roundly ignored.
TheGingerWizard
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So who is going to be the first to set up a review channel reviewing magic reviewers? Because if that takes off we will need a review channel reviewing the reviewers of magic reviewers. It could get messy.
dirtyfoucault
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, TheGingerWizard wrote:
So who is going to be the first to set up a review channel reviewing magic reviewers? Because if that takes off we will need a review channel reviewing the reviewers of magic reviewers. It could get messy.


Happy to. But I'll only give positive reviews if you send me a free supply of magic reviewers.
Gaz Lawrence
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Well the easiest thing is if you donít trust reviews is just to buy the effect yourself and do your own review if you want to . Or just buy it via PayPal and if itís not as advertised put in a dispute and you will get your full monies back anyway . Itís not a big problem imo Gaz 😊
CardGuyMike
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One problem with many effects (mostly downloads) is that they have clearly not been worked in and refined over time with real audiences. I don't know about Summit but if it truly has been road tested and refined over an extended period of time, and if real audiences truly like it, then it doesn't matter if we think it makes no logical sense. Of course, it also doesn't mean we have to buy and/or perform it if we don't like it.

But shouldn't the same go for reviewers? If a reviewer doesn't perform for audiences, then their review means less to me than a review coming from an actual worker. If a reviewer hasn't taken the time to learn the trick to the point that they can perform it, their review means less to me. They're entitled to their opinion and I will take it as a data point but I will give less weight to it. For instance, one of the most well known and popular reviewers around here doesn't perform the tricks in the review and admits that he only performs once a year. You can bash Ekaterina but at least she is a performer.

The reviewer that I give the most weight to is Craig Petty. I don't always agree with him but he:
1. Is a real worker and has been for quite some time
2. Buys all of the tricks with his own money
3. Isn't afraid to eviscerate a bad trick
4. Performs the trick as part of his review
5. Clearly articulates why the trick is good or bad

Of course I also give weight to some of the people here on the Cafť who have a track record of opinions that match mine. It doesn't mean we're right but at least I'm more likely to like the tricks they do.
cardistry master
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Yeah Ekaterina is a performer. Craig is. I believe unbiased magic reviews isn't a pro but he performs all of the stuff before reviewing. that's my main issue with magic orthodoxy.
langston3711
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I really like the idea of the effect here but the more I read about this particular trick, the more there is to dislike. I think Iíll just put an FU card inside a dry sharpie and use Digital Force Bag. They wonít need to name the card so writing it down on a business card still makes sense. Plus removing it from the Sharpe will create some time misdirection from the DFB procedure and build up some suspense before the FU card gag. Then reveal the fine print and let them keep the business card. Pretty sure that would play just as good or better to a layman and save on pocket space.
When a magician lets you notice something on your own, his lie becomes impenetrable
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Doctor D
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, langston3711 wrote:
I really like the idea of the effect here but the more I read about this particular trick, the more there is to dislike. I think Iíll just put an FU card inside a dry sharpie and use Digital Force Bag. They wonít need to name the card so writing it down on a business card still makes sense. Plus removing it from the Sharpe will create some time misdirection from the DFB procedure and build up some suspense before the FU card gag. Then reveal the fine print and let them keep the business card. Pretty sure that would play just as good or better to a layman and save on pocket space.

Here's a thought: ditch the marker and put the card in your wallet. It appearing in the marker still makes no sense, and you save even more pocket space.
goldeneye007
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Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, UnbiasedMagicReviews wrote:

The whole reason I bring it up is because most of these magic reviews are not from real magic reviewers. They are magic promoters. There's a real difference there. I would argue that if you don't see some harshly negative reviews from time to time then you are NOT watching a real magic reviewer.

There are many magic products that are complete rubbish. Everyone knows it but not everyone is brave enough to come out and say it out loud.

You can also tell because most of those magic promoters can't even demo the effect in their own hands because they literally just unboxed it.


Yes I agree that's a fair point - reviews that come from either real pros or people that have actually been out there to perform the effect should be given much more credit, and that's also where I join Mike when he says that:

Quote:
On Feb 11, 2021, CardGuyMike wrote:
One problem with many effects (mostly downloads) is that they have clearly not been worked in and refined over time with real audiences. I don't know about Summit but if it truly has been road tested and refined over an extended period of time, and if real audiences truly like it, then it doesn't matter if we think it makes no logical sense. Of course, it also doesn't mean we have to buy and/or perform it if we don't like it.

But shouldn't the same go for reviewers? If a reviewer doesn't perform for audiences, then their review means less to me than a review coming from an actual worker. If a reviewer hasn't taken the time to learn the trick to the point that they can perform it, their review means less to me. They're entitled to their opinion and I will take it as a data point but I will give less weight to it. For instance, one of the most well known and popular reviewers around here doesn't perform the tricks in the review and admits that he only performs once a year. You can bash Ekaterina but at least she is a performer.

The reviewer that I give the most weight to is Craig Petty. I don't always agree with him but he:
1. Is a real worker and has been for quite some time
2. Buys all of the tricks with his own money
3. Isn't afraid to eviscerate a bad trick
4. Performs the trick as part of his review
5. Clearly articulates why the trick is good or bad

Of course I also give weight to some of the people here on the Cafť who have a track record of opinions that match mine. It doesn't mean we're right but at least I'm more likely to like the tricks they do.


That being said I still thing anyone's opinion is interesting, not for the conclusion necessarily but mostly for everything else that comes with the opinion, hence why someone not giving any bad review is not hugely relevant for me (and that's my opinion). But sure, fair point on people that have actually performed it / working pros, that's definitely important and it does make a difference to the credibility of the review (which we all have to assess).
Ben
Gaz Lawrence
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I like all the reviews my favourites being Craig Petty and Steve Faulkner . I still like the others though as sometimes you get info from those too and I know I am experienced enough to make an informed decision anyway but I like to know exactly what I am getting even itís a statement telling me exactly whatís in the box . To me itís not about the best reviewer is just the honesty of what comes with the product and is it what I thought it was and will I use it . Not only that I like watching magic period and I am never relying on them to tell me to buy it itís just to confirm my doubts or my aspirations on an effect thatís looks something I like the look of . Obviously if I know itís impossible I like to see their honesty in pulling it shreds but thatís entertaining too and helps tat from being released again Gaz 😊
goldeneye007
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Exactly, well said Gaz!

(also agree on your point earlier where you said you're more likely to release a positive review - "However if I am reviewing magic that I have personally bought I would have done a decent amount of homework before purchasing so itís obvious the majority would probably be more favourable otherwise if it didnít suit my style etc etc I wouldnít have bought it in the first place ")
Ben
Martin Pulman
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I'm not sure the "it doesn't make sense" argument makes much sense. The history of magic is littered with effects that make little logical sense or have any link to lived experience- the universal image of a magician is a man pulling a rabbit out of a top hat.

Does it make sense for a playing card to be inside a Sharpie? No. But it doesn't really make much more sense to pretend to be thinking of burning playing cards and then taking a burnt card held by a paper clip out of a matchbox. What's that all about? Has anyone outside of a magic context ever kept a burnt playing card held by a paperclip in a matchbox?

It could be argued this crazy lack of true logic is part of magic's glory. It's a kind of dream logic. Surely what matters is that there is internal logic within the routine, with genuinely motivated actions? The idea that you think of a card, are asked to write it down and then, upon finding the pen doesn't write, discover that the card you are merely thinking of is inside the pen, blocking it from writing, has an internal logic. The sequence of events makes sense within the particular dream logic of the effect.

The issue I would have with it is, if you have already asked for the value and colour of the card (as claimed on here, and not denied as far as I can see) then it doesn't make much sense to ask for it to be written down. Much better to get them to think of a card, genuinely never name it and then allow them to take it from the Sharpie and inspect it if they wish -which can be done, of course.
jamo425
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So I decided to bite the bullet on this. When it arrives I can share my thoughts. If I think it's a bad product I will have no problem saying so.

That being said I do think it is an interesting concept and would get great reactions if performed the right way. I am skeptical about some aspects but if presentation/patter is the only issue I am fine with that. Will just figure out my own means of doing it and adjust how I see fit as I do with any other product I buy.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Tricks & Effects Ľ Ľ SUMMIT by Patrick Kun and Abstract Effects ("It's the trick of the year for me." -Ekaterina) (159 Likes)
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