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brandon90
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Atlanta
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I know the basic move but looking to perfect it.

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated
CardGuyMike
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Kostya Kimlat's Roadrunner Cull

Iain Moran's Cullfather
Carlo
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San Francisco, California
239 Posts

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Earl Nelson's DVD
Tortuga
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Ballwin, MO
749 Posts

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Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, brandon90 wrote:
I know the basic move but looking to perfect it.

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated


I think the answer really is to simply practice. I'm not saying you fit this description but I've noticed a trend in magic. Someone wants to learn or improve a sleight and so they embark on a quest to buy up all sorts of descriptions, both written and on video. Personally, I think it is a lot of wasted time and money.

You already answered your own question in my opinion. You say you know the basic move. Now comes the hard part, practice.

There is no microwave for experience. It is true that proper instruction can help speed you along but you still have to put in the time.
copperct
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Tortuga - I certainly don't believe I have the experience to argue with you, but a thought I had is that as I look at my feeble two-shelf library of books, I think Card College and perhaps to a certain extent Royal Road are the only two books I have that discuss the culling process. That being said, as I was attempting to locate a clean method that would allow me to have the spectators view the back of the cards as I shuffle through them, I really couldn't find a method that was going to work for me.

Maybe the lesson is that I need to figure out how, in my patter, to arrange myself in a way that will allow for cards to be shuttled around without the viewer watching the back of the cards, but I also think there has to be other methods that are available. If one of those methods will solve my problem, does it make sense to spend 100+ hours practicing a cull that I ultimately won't use?
CardGuyMike
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If you really want to unpack this, then we have to determine what you are trying to get out of the cull?

- Are you just trying to learn a basic utility move?
- Are you looking to perform a particular trick?
- Do you have restrictions such as wanting to allow the user to see the backs as you cull?

There are different variations of the cull. There is the basic Hofzinser spread cull. There is Kostya's roadrunner cull. David Gonzalez has a variation of the cull ("David's Cull") that can probably be seen from the back. Depending on what you want there is Lennart Green's Angle Separation or Harry Lorayne's Great Divide.

So first perhaps you want to understand the differences between the different types of culls and settle on one that you want to learn. After that, as Tortuga says practice will get you farther than multiple references on the cull.
Tortuga
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Ballwin, MO
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Quote:
On Mar 3, 2021, copperct wrote:
Tortuga - I certainly don't believe I have the experience to argue with you, but a thought I had is that as I look at my feeble two-shelf library of books, I think Card College and perhaps to a certain extent Royal Road are the only two books I have that discuss the culling process. That being said, as I was attempting to locate a clean method that would allow me to have the spectators view the back of the cards as I shuffle through them, I really couldn't find a method that was going to work for me.

Maybe the lesson is that I need to figure out how, in my patter, to arrange myself in a way that will allow for cards to be shuttled around without the viewer watching the back of the cards, but I also think there has to be other methods that are available. If one of those methods will solve my problem, does it make sense to spend 100+ hours practicing a cull that I ultimately won't use?


OK, but now you are bringing in other variables to the original question. That isn't what I was responding to. What the OP said was that he knew the basic technique. And I assume the technique will work for the application in which he needs it.
copperct
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Quote:
On Mar 3, 2021, Tortuga wrote:

OK, but now you are bringing in other variables to the original question. That isn't what I was responding to. What the OP said was that he knew the basic technique. And I assume the technique will work for the application in which he needs it.


Perhaps you are giving newbies too much credit! The most places I can read about the same move, with slightly different descriptions, the better prepared I feel to actually sit down and practice as I feel much more comfortable knowing that I am not learning bad habits! Smile
Gennovense
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If you already know the move then Roadrunner is the way to go.
Schlawiner
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I currently learn the cull from the roadrunner DVD. In the DVD he mentions that he always fans out some cards, then closes the fan again, then shows the next cards, then close, then the next cards and so on (with the correct rhythm and speed).
However, I'm unsure how the "opening" and "closing" of the fan is related to the position of the card which I want to cull. For example, let's say I want to call the 4 aces.
Then I open the first fan, no aces are there, so I close it and open the next fan with lets say 8 cards. Let's say an ace is at the 3rd position. Do I still open all the 8 cards? Or do I stop after the 3rd card and cull it? When I'm culling, do I continue to open the spread or close it? For example, I could hide the culling better if I would open the fan (and show more cards) while culling, but I can just do that with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th ace because with the first ace I need my left thumb. Or should I start to close the fan as soon as I cull a card? Or is the position of the card completly unrelated to when I should open/close the fans?
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Mar 3, 2021, copperct wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 3, 2021, Tortuga wrote:

OK, but now you are bringing in other variables to the original question. That isn't what I was responding to. What the OP said was that he knew the basic technique. And I assume the technique will work for the application in which he needs it.


Perhaps you are giving newbies too much credit! The most places I can read about the same move, with slightly different descriptions, the better prepared I feel to actually sit down and practice as I feel much more comfortable knowing that I am not learning bad habits! Smile


I can't argue with what works for you. If that helps you, then go for it! I was just saying that I recognize a pattern. It is different from the desire to study something fully and gather a bunch of resources. If you are doing a "deep dive" into something, then of course you will want to dig into the published literature. But that's not what I'm talking about. I believe some magicians keep searching, not to engage in a thorough study, but rather to try to avoid months of practice. And if they have the resources, good for them. But I don't think it is the best way. Others are welcome to disagree.
copperct
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In photography we call this GAS - Gear Acquisition Syndrome! It's when you just need to get out and work with your camera, but you want to just keep buying filters and lenses and such rather than take the time to practice. Funny how that seems to be pattern among interests that are shared between amateurs and professionals...
Nikodemus
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Quote:
On Mar 2, 2021, brandon90 wrote:
I know the basic move


This is just too vague to offer meaningful advice. His technique could be rubbish or pretty *** good - or anywhere in between.

Quote:
I think Card College and perhaps to a certain extent Royal Road are the only two books I have that discuss the culling process.


I tried to learn from the Crd College (book) description. It is actually pretty misleading. Includes a diagram showing a spread of about 15 cards as I recall.
CullFather & RoadRunner were both brilliant investments.

Quote:
method that would allow me to have the spectators view the back of the cards as I shuffle through them


If the culled card(s) were odd-backed or reversed, they would definitely be noticeable. Otherwise you should probably get away with it. If you leave the spread wide and pull with the right fingers it is too obvious. If you use the style of closing the spread for a moment it is safer in this situation.
BUT generally you would not want to do this. it would look much more innocent to show the faces, Showing backs = hiding faces, which is much more suspicious looking. The whole point is you have "nothing to hide" as you run through the cards.
copperct
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That's great advice Nikodemus. I have only learned from Card College so maybe I need to also look at one of those other sources.
Boomer
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Harapan Ong/Vanishing Inc. released Close Culls.

I've no idea how good/bad it is, it's collecting dust while I focus on other things (like learning how to shuffle again)


Dave
countrymaven
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I would suggest that you read my posts in the thread on the "Hofnizer spread cull"
I break down the two different ways of doing this and the top guys who go with a style which I believe is both easier,
simpler and more deceptive. But this will take you months of practice and you must be willing to buy
the right resources. I mention these too.

You do not have to agree with me. ULtimately, what works well for you is the best. But I was kept from the cull, I believe, because I did not have good information on what resources and technique to start with. Wish you the best.
copperct
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I just came across this link in my notes when I was looking for something else, but you may find Giobbi's newsletter helpful for some of the issues I was running into that weren't laid out in the books:

https://www.robertogiobbi.com/site/secre......rimotos/

I know it isn't another source, but it did solve some problems I had been trying to work out on my own.
countrymaven
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Copperct: I read Giobbi's newsletter.

Normally I would favor anything from Giobbi. IN this instance, he seems to be unfamiliar with Ian Moran's the Cullfather.
You do not need to resort to all the cutting and monkey business advised by Giobbi. If you learn the cull right, you can do it smoothly and without a seeming hitch, no matter where the cards are or how many are together.

The whole point of the cull is to look like you are going through the cards casually, for some purpose. YOu definitely do not want to look like you are manipulating cards with cuts, etc, after you find them. JUst watch the Cullfather. PRoblem solved. I do the cull, so I am not just providing a theoretical answer. Also, once you learn the cull force correctly you will be hooked.

I am trying to help solve problems. IF you find other solutions or disagree with me, it is cool. Magic is a very creative art and we need people who do things differently to make magic a vibrant creative community!!!
Poof-Daddy
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Stephen Hobbs "Technical Toolbox" was what worked for me. His Cull section was easy for me to understand and utilize.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






Smile Smile
copperct
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No disagreement here!

To this point, pretty much all of the material that I've consumed is in the forms of books. I just can't bring myself to spend the types of money on DVDs that may have only a fraction of the content to consume and learn as a corresponding book (take for example Giobbi's CC books vs. the accompanying dvds that completely skipped moves like the pass).

Hearing so much praise for Cullfather and Roadrunner has put them on my list of "must-get" material, like that list isn't never-ending already!
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