Partizan if you ever come over here be careful impersonating an officer as it's a crime. And clearly the power of sugestion that you were employing effectively will make your audiance (for instance the bus driver) testify that you did indeed tell them you were a police officer.

Great story about the power of real deception as used so often in our world, unfortunately most often for malicious purposes and hence the automatically negative associations. I personally believe that when we cross over to the other side of the proscenium that it is clear we are performing and in that context the deceptions, stories or lies we speak are understood to merely serve the performance. I think it is a failing of the language that there is not a different word for this non malicious form of untruth.

I thought it would be interesting to see the definition from 1904 edition of Webster's International Dictionary
(separate noun and verb entries)

Lie (noun)
1. A falsehood uttered or acted for the purpose of deception; an intentional violation of truth; an untruth spoken with the intention to deceive.
The proper notion of a lie is an endeavoring to deceive another by signifying that to him as true, which we ourselves think not to be so.
It is willful deceit that makes a lie. A man may act a lie, as pointing his finger in a wrong direction when a traveler inquires of him his road.
2. A fiction; a fable; an untruth.
3. Anything which misleads or disappoints.

Lie (verb)
1. To utter falsehood with an intention to deceive; say or do that which is intended to deceive another, when he has a right to know the truth, or when morality requires a just representation.

A more current definition from 2001 Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary
(combines the noun and verb entries)
Lie
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional mistruth; a falsehood. 2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car is a lie that deceived no one. 3. an inaccurate or false


Hamilton

Thanks for the posts Hamilton. The 2 definitions were suprizing to see.
It would seem that many of the moral descriptions were dropped in later listings. interesting!

You can be arrested for impersonation of an officer over here too. Mind you, If you were good, you could arrest the arresting officer claiming he was the fake

Yes if you were really good... that would be interesting to see. Sounds like a scene from a movie.

This thread was very interesting. I especially liked Bill Palmers posts, what a great storyteller. I have joked with close friends about this subject. I say that "being a magician is the only occupation where you get to lie to people and they like you for it. Politicians try and so do lawyers, but we magicians would bore you to tears if we always told the truth"

Sometimes my jokes are told as if they were real life experiences. My wife says I'm like a boxer, I show you my right, then hook you with my left.

No doubt neither were things of terrifying beauty.

I'm having a hard time believing anything written on this post.

Myself, I've never told a lie.

mmmff, cough, ahem...ha! ha!

Rats, I knew I couldn't keep a straight face...sorry!

P. Differ

My latest one is about Saddam.

I am telling (gullable marks) that Saddam escaped from jail. The media have been told to hush it and the American government is in denial. There is an islamic website with pictures of him liberated.
This is why you are not hearing much about him at the moment.
If they come back and say "I just seen him on TV", I reply, "Yea! I just looked at that website, and they said he had been recaptured"
Well, It gives me a laugh!

B.S. = Buncha Stuff
M.S. = Mosta the Stuff
Ph.D = Piles Highest and Deepest

Partizan, you are hereby awarded an honorary Ph.D.

Congratulations, sir!

P. Differ

Something just clicked in my mind, and I must share.

First a question.

Did your mother tell you not too lie?
or
Did she say "I don't mind if you lie. Just not to me or your father" ?

I will simplify.

Did you grow up being told, (perhaps punished if disobeyed) not too lie?
Or
was you free to engague in mind games where you could plead innocence in the face of irrefutable guilt?

Like a child covered in makeup who pleads innocence to using mums cosmetics, Too lie is NATURAL.
Too suppress lies would by contrast seem to be a limiting thing.

Too lie, is too use your mind in its most raw form too exonerate its user from the consiquences of guilt.
In natural liars this happens in 10ths or 100ths of a second. Like a chess game with a severe outcome. the mind should naturally plan a full game of play within seconds. And this plan is refined and bent as the deception deepens and the game expands.

If you do not have this skill then I will tell you this. Blame your MUM or DAD for removing this most useful of training tools from you.
Without them planting a mind voice that tells you "to lie is bad" your mind and thought would have expanded 10 fold.


"Too lie, is to solve an impossible problem on the fly."
The mind is forced to explore places and things that are uncommon, abstract and abnormal. then pull the most viable concept into reality. Moulding it around the anchors of the real world. This by necessity is done in a short time and with little effort by an adept.

The big difference between the cans and can'ts is this.

A can will always get a "can't" to reveal the truth!
A "can't" will never be able too get the truth from a can!

I have a friend who performs wonderful spirit-theatre seances.
In his introduction before "lights out", he states no fewer than four times that he is a magician. It does not matter to his audience in the least! People pay him money to make them believe, and I think that's the point.
Do people know that you as a magician are deceiving them (or at least their eyes)? Yes.
Do they want you to make them believe real magic is happening to them through you? Yes.
Do they actually believe you can do that? No, but they want to!

I'm going to go ahead and diagnosis Partizan with a mild form of psychosis.

I don't think he is connected enough with reality to understand why lieing is wrong.



Let me play this game with you:

The dictionary tells us:
Murder, The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

It does not say:
Murder: An evil and malicious act, designed to inflict harm. Used by evil people that want to be very nasty to others and make as much discord that is possible.

The dictionary never makes references to morals or what is right and wrong, only the description.

It is up to us, as a society to pick and choose what and what not is correct for normal everyday circumstances.

And society has chosen that lieing is on a whole wrong, and not something that everyone should do.

You can argue the correctness of lieing, just as you can argue the correctness of stealing, cheating on a spouse, or even murder.

However, in all of these cases the argument is wrong, because society has chosen that those things are not right.


I'm sure that if your intelligent enough to write your post, then your intelligent to look past your psychosis and relize that I'm, and others here are the ones that are right.

However, I think that you just want to argue a futile point, so I'm sure your going to bash my post in one way or another, but try to take my advice to heart.

From what I understand, Partizan is defining a lie as anything that is created only in the mind. If it actually exists or existed physically, then it's the truth. That's why he has consistenly referred to a story as a lie. Since stories are all fabricated, unless a non-fiction piece of work, they must be lies.

I don't understand how you (Daegs) can deem him a victim of psychosis. As far as your murder analogy goes, lets make the connections.

with Partizan: a story (societally accepted) < a lie (societally unaccepted)
with Partizan-logic murder analogy: death penalty (societally accepted) < murder (societally unaccepted)

But then there will be those who argue that death penalty isn't murder. But with Partizan's logic, it would be. So the argument becomes futile because everyone has their own definition of the exact thing they are arguing about. So in order for the argument or discussion to go somewhere, accept Partizan's definition of a lie, and argue or discuss from thereforth.


Lance

Lance, the point is that Partizan, whether doing it because of a messed up sense of morals or just wants to argue, is setting up false stipulations to the arguement.

You cannot just say "accept a story is a lie" and argue from there.

I could make a post saying "If you perform an effect, in a way you are exposing the basic premise of the trick, and therefore no one should perform magic because its all exposure", then should you just accept my point and argue from there?

The basic assumption that lieing is ok, and then playing semantics with dictionary references is just a bad tactic to use to raise an argument.


As far as the diagnosis, I did say mild, and I do believe that anyone who really believes lieing an ok thing to do in your everyday life is definatly disconnected from reality.

This is no different(only in terms of severity) than people who think its ok to steal, or people who think that it is ok to kill and eat another human being.

Everyone who believes that is not crazy, they are sometimes very intelligent people that can rationalize it from now until they die, but it won't change the fact that they are wrong because society has deemed things like stealing, rape, murder and lieing to be wrong and not appropriate for everyday life.

First of all, Partizan did not start this thread for the purpose of an argument. He asked reasonable questions.

Even Houdini died thinking what he did throughout his life was a lie. There's a famous account of him speaking to a doctor saying, "I wish I was like you. I would rather be a doctor." The doctor responds, "HA! You must be joking. You're one of the most famous persons in the world. Why would you trade that for being a doctor?" Houdini stares straight into the doc's eyes and says, "Because what you do is real."

I'm not saying that Houdini's or Partizan's logic of what a lie is is right. I don't think a story is a lie. I don't think doing magic is a lie. I love writing and listening to stories, and I love doing magic. I don't agree with the fact that he considers them lies since lies are , in terms of denotative semantics, motivated for deceit.

But for a discussion to go somewhere, either accept the stipulations of an argument/discussion, or don't participate in it since it'll just be a futile endeavour.




Honestly, that would have made an interesting post. Obviously it wouldn't have led to a constructive discussion, because that's just settling in for an argument by regulating what should and shouldn't be done. But Partizan's thread wasn't motivated toward an argument, he looked for answers, that people who shared his logic of a lie could further discuss.



Yes, you did say mild. Sorry, it's just that I get rather upset when people start naming conditions for others they disagree with. Maybe it's because I've suffered from a chronic condition that made me more defensive for those unfairly judged. As far as him being disconnected with reality, reality is very relative to one's own perceptions.




Which society do you speak for? As we learn from history, what is deemed wrong and inappropriate for everyday life changes through the generations because of social/environmental pressures. During the American Revolution, there was a time when a few soldiers were starving to death in the most abysmal winter storm. In those moments of survival, they resorted to cannibalism to ease their hunger pangs. During the glory of Aztec civilization, it was a social norm to sacrifice kids for the sun god to subside their fear of an armageddon. Today in poverty-stricken societies where the corrupt rich exploit the poor, it is acceptable for them to steal in order for them to survive on a day to day basis. Why do you think Robin Hood is a folklore hero?

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, just based on context and logic, one could argue for either side. To make a blanket statement saying "society has deemed things like such and such wrong" is ignorant at best. Since I grew up in an urban Middle Class community right in the US of A , I share your values. But before judging that a person has a mild case of whatever, have an open mind. They were probably brought up differently with a different set of morals since morality is a very relative issue.


Lance

When the lie is a form of storytelling it is not considered a lie. As magicians we are often called actors that are playing the part of a man or a woman that can do magical wonders.

When a lie is done in our government isn't it called political science and a spin on the truth?

Lance, I'm far from being egocentric about society.


I do relize how many cultures are different, however, since I know Partizan is living in London and that he frequents busses and knows a policeman or two, that he is living in a modern society.


Perhaps in a hundred years Partizan will be right and we will have a world full of liars....

But right now in todays modern society, lieing and the rest of what I said is wrong, not because I personally have judgment on lieing or stealing or anything, but simply because modern society has deemed it wrong.

That is why I focused on the society part, because I wanted to make it clear that whether or not Partizan is "really" right, you can only judge it in terms of what the consesus is, and right now at this point in time, lieing is wrong and shouldn't be done.

I disagree with you Daegs. Your understanding of what society approves of is very simplistic and unsophisticated. Most people in modern Western culture make lots of distinctions among different kinds of lies, and among lying in different situations.

Is it wrong to lie to protect an innocent hiding from the Nazis? When a lady asks you if she looks too fat before going out for the evening, is it wrong to tell a little lie to protect her feelings and self-confidence?

Do you not think it wrong to rain on the parade of fairies and witches that a child seeks to enjoy in fantasy?

Every great joke has an element of deception in the telling, and the fun of play with the elements of language and deception, among both children and adults, is an important part of our learning to recognize and analyze deceptive behavior.

It is considered fun, and entertainment to tell stories, jokes and faerie tales filled with make-believe, exageration, and whoppers.

Every Shakespearean play has a plot hinged to some degree on a lie. We love to tell stories about lies, and great liars, and we love to lie in the telling of these stories.

Imagine a Brer Rabbit or Bugs Bunny that never lied. What fun would that be? And why do we love these rascals so? What are we trying to learn from them?

This is not considered unethical behavior, rather it is the literature and myth from which we gain knowledge about what is human, and what really is right and wrong. Making fine distinctions is the very art of civilization.

This is not amoral behavior--simply an acceptance of, and celebration of, some of the "stuff" we encounter in our experiences with other people in society.

There are many day to day situations in which most people in society would not only approve a lie, but insist on it for the sake of manners, propriety, and even justice.

Deception is built into the fabric of evolution itself. It has been both a hindrance and a boon to the evolution of man and the growth of civilization.

Without lies and deception, there would have been a failure on D-Day at Normandie.

Many a guilty party has escaped justice through lying, but also many innocent have been protected through the judicious use of a lie.

Even the people who disapprove of a lie in the abstract, will usually condone a lie for the "right purpose" in the right situation.

Those who are incapable of this, are usually not more moral people, but rather simply self-righteous dullards who find comfort and safety in arbitrary and meaningless rules.

And then there are those, God save us from them, who are only too willing to hide their own meanness, envy, and malice behind a big lie--"I only said it because it was the truth."

Magic is itself a very sophisticated kind of game that people play, which is all about deception, logic, and lying. It is a parody of logic, and a depiction of deception and sophistry that delights people with its complications, and mix of deceit and fantasy and false logic. It is the delight of the audience to watch and analyze and pretend and play with the magician as he takes them for a ride down this avenue of human behavior.

Eric Sevareid, after watching Doug Hennings "The Magic Show" on Broadway, said this:

"I have no idea how the young man did what I am sure I saw him do.

But I couldn't help thinking during the show about something I learned when I was very young.

There are only two kinds of people in the world: People that can be had, and suckers. Every one can be had, but a sucker will bet you fifty bucks he can't be had.

Maybe that is why there is a need for the magicians among us--to remind us that we can all be had, so that we never become suckers."

I didn't say you were egocentric about society. But you sure are naively eurocentric.



We live in a world already full of liars. Open your eyes. The propaganda we are fed on a day to day basis such as the sensationalized nationalistic news are full of lies. The leaders of the world lie for their and their nation's self-interest. Some are politicans as bishthemagish mentions. The moment you think no one is lying is the moment, as Whit Haydn mentions, you become a sucker. Is it morally correct to lie? Depends on the circumstances.

Partizan even opens this thread with "I don't mean this in a malicious or nasty way."




You cannot only judge it by the terms of consensus. You are not a sheep. You have a mind of your own. Don't fool yourself to believe in everything the consensus believes.

If you speak for "consensus" between countries, then you are imposing yourself to China's beliefs or India's beliefs since they do have the two largest populations of the world. If you speak for "consensus" between religions, then you are imposing yourself to Christianity's beliefs or Islam's beliefs, which at times contradict one another. Remember, morality is relative.

Wars are brought upon conflicting beliefs among differing societies.


P.S. Whit Haydn, those were excellent posts of yours.

Lance

P.S. Whit Haydn, those were excellent posts of yours.

I second that! Thank you for posting them Whit!