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Nikodemus
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Quote:
On May 31, 2021, cfirwin3 wrote:
Quote:
On May 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
For those of you who do ACAAN, what presentation do you use to make laymen care?


I talk about David Berglas and his "holy grail" trick that he would perform for enormous audiences and intimate settings alike "just like this one... just like right now". Pretty straight forward. The story always comes across as compelling. It sells the improbability of the feat, and it helps with the optics regardless of the method that I am using.

It's like talking about Harry Houdini while attempting to escape from handcuffs. Everyone loves a good piece of nonfiction!


Hear hear!
peppermeat2000
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On May 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
For those of you who do ACAAN, what presentation do you use to make laymen care?


This question could quite possibly pertain to any card trick...
Sixten
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Quote:
On May 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
For those of you who do ACAAN, what presentation do you use to make laymen care?


I have (partially) adopted Mr. Rick Lax's opening of: "Where It Has To Go."
Using two specs. Asking them, if they will help me in trying to solve a long-running card baffler/mystery?
(With a Beginning, Middle & a Ending)

(Note: Running patter included)
Asking one for a number: To keep it interesting, from 10 to 45.
& the other: For any card they care for.
To show the cards as being normal, I display the deck, face-up, & close. Then, I hand it over to one of them to count to the number.

Smile
vinsmagic
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That's not true accan 10- to 45even I it looks good
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
cfirwin3
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On Jun 16, 2021, vinsmagic wrote:
That's not true accan 10- to 45even I it looks good


I contend that if the spectator FEELS as though it COULD be any number then it is certainly a "true" acaan.

The justification used for 10 to 45 doesn't negate the perception of any number because it implies that those numbers make it more 'interesting'.

Of course performers must have license to compel spectators to choose a range that makes a trick work (as a method). It's a bedrock principle in magic. It's like saying that a false shuffle isn't good because it is false.

I think the distinction between ACAAN and CAAN or some other variation is rather silly if/when the spectator is lead to believe that it has all been fair and open (even if it hasn't).
vinsmagic
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The only thing I can say, if one is looking for the holy grail sorta speak, 10 to 45 is does not meet that criteria .
no matter how good the trick is. the reaction one gets is what count's not the effect...
hope I make sense


.
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
cfirwin3
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Quote:
On Jun 16, 2021, vinsmagic wrote:
The only thing I can say, if one is looking for the holy grail sorta speak, 10 to 45 is does not meet that criteria .
no matter how good the trick is. the reaction one gets is what count's not the effect...
hope I make sense.



I hear what you're saying...
But my point is that the following 2 statements are not equal. The first one is a restriction and the second is a method.

1. Name a number between 10 and 45.
2. To keep this interesting, name a number between 10 and 45.

The 1st statement can't lead to the 'holy grail' moment that you speak of. But with the second, there is an implication that 0-52(54) are in play... however, choosing a higher but not too high of a number somehow "keeps it interesting". If the spectator believes this, then the retrospect understanding is that any number could have been in play. That understanding is the 'holy grail'. It's never about what is possible. It's only ever about what is understood and believed.
Dealing with 'the holy grail' is no different than any other effect where a force is in play, a lie is told (or conveyed) or equivocation drives the outcome.

So, it's not about free choices and keeping hands off the cards. It's about the belief in having made free, open choices and the perception of a completely secure deck (true or not).
Nikodemus
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On Jun 16, 2021, cfirwin3 wrote:
Of course performers must have license to compel spectators to choose a range that makes a trick work (as a method). It's a bedrock principle in magic..


I'm sorry, this is not a "bedrock principle" - it is wishful thinking. People are just not that stupid.

I think you make a valid point that we can often make an audience FEEL a choice is more free than it actually is. (Eg any force). But nobody is going to think they had a free choice from 1-52 if you offer them a choice from 5-45 because it is "more interesting". if you need to limit their choice there must be better ways.
How about asking them to randomly choose a card from a number deck (which has a limited range of numbers)?
Actually this would probably be a good question to ask on the Café (if it hasn't been asked before)
cfirwin3
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Quote:
On Jun 18, 2021, Nikodemus wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 16, 2021, cfirwin3 wrote:
Of course performers must have license to compel spectators to choose a range that makes a trick work (as a method). It's a bedrock principle in magic..


I'm sorry, this is not a "bedrock principle" - it is wishful thinking. People are just not that stupid.

I think you make a valid point that we can often make an audience FEEL a choice is more free than it actually is. (Eg any force). But nobody is going to think they had a free choice from 1-52 if you offer them a choice from 5-45 because it is "more interesting". if you need to limit their choice there must be better ways.
How about asking them to randomly choose a card from a number deck (which has a limited range of numbers)?
Actually this would probably be a good question to ask on the Café (if it hasn't been asked before)


I say it is a bedrock principle because all magic works on the premise of herding a spectator. They are shown only what they should see. The limits are set and the goal is to convince them or compel them to believe that there are no limits. In this sense, all tricks are forces.

The smartest of the smart are subject to this premise. It's not about stupidity or gullibility. It's about feeling out the moment, saying the right things (or not saying the wrong things) etc.
Sixten
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If the number 1-thru-9 is called, or 46-thru-52, the card will be there also.
countrymaven
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Many good points have been made here. But it is also important to consider a bit more the END USER? The spectator, IMHO.
I perform magic all around; just about wherever I go. I am still confused about where the magician's obsession with counting to a number
is used. I can't afford to have my spec's fall asleep.

As to the conditions listed, no spectator could reasonably remember or list virtually any of these after an effect was shown.
I find that your proper creative presentation, with gravitas, adds much more to card magic than things which typically dazzle magicians but fail to do so to spectators. I am merely appealing to the other side of this conversation; what works for you works for you.
Nikodemus
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Hi Countrymaven,
I agree that spectators aren't in the business of making lists of conditions. But they will be aware of them at some level. Especially if the magician emphasises them. The conditions imposed are often what makes an effect truly magical. This is evidenced by the comments of spectators afterwards - eg "But he never even touched the cards"

Sixten - if all numbers 1-52 work ok (as you have said), then it is crazy to limit it to 10-45 "to keep it interesting". Many spectators will conclude (wrongly according to you) that this is a limit to the method. Which lessens the magical experience.
Most people will pick a number in the middle anyway, so it is much better presentation to offer a free choice of 1-52.

cfirwin3 - I agree with your point that we should try to create the impression there are no limits (whereas actually there are). But we need to "herd" (great word!) the spectators SUBTLY, so we maintain the illusion of freedom of choice. Asking for a number from 10-45 "to keep it interesting" is NOT subtle, it is blatantly obvious. There are better approaches.
The best magicians hone their presentations to iron out details like this.
MikeLarkin
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The problem with this trick, for me, is that it is not really that entertaining. It is like some pointless Holy Grail quest, except the Grail itself is made of tinfoil instead of platinum!
Tortuga
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
The problem with this trick, for me, is that it is not really that entertaining. It is like some pointless Holy Grail quest, except the Grail itself is made of tinfoil instead of platinum!


Some are fascinated by it and some are outright obsessed. Let them have their fun. Nobody is hurt in the process, right?
Jon Allen
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If you find this card trick boring it’s not because of the card trick but rather the fault of the person doing it.
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
Order the bar-raising DVD set 'Connection' at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
cfirwin3
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On Jun 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
If you find this card trick boring it’s not because of the card trick but rather the fault of the person doing it.

Preach.
MikeLarkin
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On Jun 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
If you find this card trick boring it’s not because of the card trick but rather the fault of the person doing it.

Perhaps, but something like Tamariz' Mnemonicosis has some of the elements of a ACAAN, but is far more stunning and amusing to watch due to the many layers he has added in on top of the bare bones effect.
Jon Allen
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Quote:
On Jun 23, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
Perhaps, but something like Tamariz' Mnemonicosis has some of the elements of a ACAAN, but is far more stunning and amusing to watch due to the many layers he has added in on top of the bare bones effect.


Stripping away all presentation, why is this effect more stunning and amusing to watch for the audience than the ACAAN effect?
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
Order the bar-raising DVD set 'Connection' at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk
MikeLarkin
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Quote:
On Jun 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 23, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
Perhaps, but something like Tamariz' Mnemonicosis has some of the elements of a ACAAN, but is far more stunning and amusing to watch due to the many layers he has added in on top of the bare bones effect.


Stripping away all presentation, why is this effect more stunning and amusing to watch for the audience than the ACAAN effect?

The layers of procedure actually make it seem more impossible. All the shuffling, the phonecall, having another spectator effectively finding the card. But you cannot divorce the presentation from the effect, as presentation is everything.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Jun 23, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 22, 2021, Jon Allen wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 23, 2021, MikeLarkin wrote:
Perhaps, but something like Tamariz' Mnemonicosis has some of the elements of a ACAAN, but is far more stunning and amusing to watch due to the many layers he has added in on top of the bare bones effect.


Stripping away all presentation, why is this effect more stunning and amusing to watch for the audience than the ACAAN effect?

The layers of procedure actually make it seem more impossible. All the shuffling, the phonecall, having another spectator effectively finding the card.


You could easily graft those elements onto many standard ACAAN routines.
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