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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Under Spread Force - two versions? Which is Hofzinser? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Nikodemus
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Hi,
I am hoping someone can clarify the correct name/origin of two versions of the Under Spread Force.

1. The force card starts on the BOTTOM of the deck. As you spread the deck, you somehow push/pull the card under the spread. (I find this really hard!)

2. The force card is culled from somewhere near the top of the deck (usually about 3/4/5 from the top. (I find this pretty easy)

I always lumped them together in my mind, and had the idea both were called the "Hofzinser Under Spread Force".
Comments I have read lately, make me think the original Hofsinser version was the one with card on bottom; and someone else created the easier version with card near the top.
Is this correct???

ALSO - any tips on the card-on-bottom version would be much appreciated.
Rupert Pupkin
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While neither was the first to originate their respective technique, Hofzinser is associated with the bottom-card cull force, and Fred Robinson the near-the-top cull force.
Nikodemus
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Thanks Rupert
magicfish
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The first is Marlo's B.D.E.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Jun 2, 2021, magicfish wrote:
The first is Marlo's B.D.E.


Just so we're clear, this is incorrect. The spread force from the bottom of the deck can be found in Hofzinser's Card Conjuring.

BDE is certainly a finessed exploration of related concepts. But it was originated (and published) much later.
cfirwin3
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The force part of the technique is fairly tangential.

It is not wrong to attribute the action of culling from higher in the deck as a means to force to Hofzinser as the action is merely a Hofzinser spread cull. The force part of it is fairly universal.

That said, of course there are specific publications that describe particular combinations as noted above.

I generally attribute the method to Hofzinser as the cull used to get it done is attributed to him regardless of the starting point.
Mr Salk
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The action from under shouldn’t be that difficult. You have a massive moving fan to cover the shenanigans of most all your fingers.
.


.
Nikodemus
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Quote:
On Jun 4, 2021, Mr Salk wrote:
The action from under shouldn’t be that difficult. You have a massive moving fan to cover the shenanigans of most all your fingers.


I find it extremely difficult. Maybe it's because I have quite dry hands. Somehow you need to wrangle that bottom card from the bottom of the deck in your left hand to underneath the cards in your right hand. And it just doesn't want to move.

As I understand it, Harry Lorayne developed his Lorayne Force as an easier way to force the bottom card because he also struggled with the force in question.
And Fred Robinson seems to have come up with the alternative to cull the force card from near the top, because that is much easier.
So I don't think I am the only one to find it tricky.
cfirwin3
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2021, Nikodemus wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 4, 2021, Mr Salk wrote:
The action from under shouldn’t be that difficult. You have a massive moving fan to cover the shenanigans of most all your fingers.


I find it extremely difficult. Maybe it's because I have quite dry hands. Somehow you need to wrangle that bottom card from the bottom of the deck in your left hand to underneath the cards in your right hand. And it just doesn't want to move.

As I understand it, Harry Lorayne developed his Lorayne Force as an easier way to force the bottom card because he also struggled with the force in question.
And Fred Robinson seems to have come up with the alternative to cull the force card from near the top, because that is much easier.
So I don't think I am the only one to find it tricky.


All the forces that make the bottom deal complicated are at work in the bottom cull treatment of the force. If you do a decent BD, then think of the action more in those terms than in terms of the traditional culling action.

Personally, I always control the card higher (usually 4th from top) when using this force.
Harry Lorayne
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I use my force - THE LORAYNE FORCE - mostly when handling a packet - not a full deck. I still fool magicians with it. Martin Nash used it a LOT. To force a card and to set key cards. Look it up - start learning the good stuff!!!
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Nikodemus
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2021, cfirwin3 wrote:

All the forces that make the bottom deal complicated are at work in the bottom cull treatment of the force. If you do a decent BD, then think of the action more in those terms than in terms of the traditional culling action.


I can't do a bottom deal (yet) - I'm still a beginner really. But this is a very useful insight, thank you.

(So I also cull the card from near the top instead)
Nikodemus
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Gary Ouellet's TOUCH FORCE is an easy alternative to the Hofzinser one. (ie when the force card starts on the bottom).
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2021, Nikodemus wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 4, 2021, Mr Salk wrote:
The action from under shouldn’t be that difficult. You have a massive moving fan to cover the shenanigans of most all your fingers.


I find it extremely difficult. Maybe it's because I have quite dry hands. Somehow you need to wrangle that bottom card from the bottom of the deck in your left hand to underneath the cards in your right hand. And it just doesn't want to move.

As I understand it, Harry Lorayne developed his Lorayne Force as an easier way to force the bottom card because he also struggled with the force in question.
And Fred Robinson seems to have come up with the alternative to cull the force card from near the top, because that is much easier.
So I don't think I am the only one to find it tricky.


An easy way to get that bottom card is to buckle it with your left index finger as you spread the cards at the top of the deck. That bottom card will then slide right off.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
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