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DuanePaul
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Hey guys, Duane here. I'm one of the videographers for How to Control Minds by Peter Turner.

I didn't see a thread for it yet, which is very odd considering it launched yesterday.

I wanted to open it up for discussion here... If you've not seen the trailer yet, click on this link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fir......r-turner

Cheers

Duane
kissdadookie
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Seeing how Midas Touch alone cost I think it was $75 or $100 is what I originally paid for that, this is a really excellent set.

What I am somewhat annoyed by is that these are some very strong material which was previously only available in his limited edition releases (Bigger Fish Files, Devil in Disguise 2) is now available in this set for such a low price (in my opinion, the price here is a bargain). I picked this set up as well as the legendary 10 booklet add on (pretty sure the booklets are basically material from his Masterclass PDFs but containing select items from each sorted by topic, I like the idea that these physical booklets looks to just contain some of the best bits in a physical booklet which I do prefer to refer back to as opposed to PDFs, easier to read).

Just to be clear, I would not suggest owners of DiD2 and Bigger Fish Files as well as the Masterclass PDFs to jump on this. I think for owners of those releases, the question to ask is if basically paying a relatively reasonable $100 for this to get more performance footage as well as POSSIBLE additional insights into this along with the session he has with Mark, worth it. For me, I was willing to buy this even though I own the previous releases but this is in my opinion nowhere near a must have for other owners of those previous releases.

If you are new to his material though, jump on this, it’s a bargain for the material you are getting.
scott0819
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Cost for Peter's 'Midas Touch' booklet was originally £75 British pounds, plus shipping! If the full work is included on this project, that alone makes this quite a bargain. Assuming you don't already have the content in other releases.
MagicBrent
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I ordered this even though I believe I own a lot of this material. It’s nice that it’s all condensed here and I look forward to more detail into explanations because I’d had trouble with the Jedi force from lectures.
ed wood
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I recently picked up a copy of Midas Touched used for £20. It is without a doubt the worst PK touch routine I've ever come across. Absolutely fine until your audience talk to each other afterwards, it will unravel in seconds. The third touch wouldn't fool a child. Clearly the product of someone who has no experience actually performing (apart from for awful ellusionist videos where you can show instant over reactions and ignore the conversations a few seconds later where they figure out what happened).
Now he's back to his old tricks of flogging other peoples closely guarded secrets to kids on kickstarter. "Get known as the most interesting kid at school" indeed.
Why oh why do people continue to support this man, flogging the same regurgitated material again and again? The majority of his tricks are boring or unworkable, the rest is minor updates on classic material. Selling these sets on kickstarter with comments like "No skills required" should make him a pariah amongst magicians (although having seen him perform it is fair to say his only real skill it talking for so long that you no longer care how whatever he's doing is done, you just want it to finish and then you can run away (giving the impression you're amazed not just desperate to get away). It's time people realized that not only does the emperor have no clothes but he knows it.
ed wood
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Ellusionist know what they are doing when it comes to making a buck. This is aimed at kids and the socially awkward who want to amaze their friends with their new party tricks. You too can amaze your friends with your skills, become the new Derren Brown, no practice, knowledge or skill necessary.
gassaox
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Looks great but my memory is useless remembering the right words to frame routines like these
shakuni
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There is more to learn here about sales and marketing, then mentalism.
Peter_turner
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On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:
I recently picked up a copy of Midas Touched used for £20. It is without a doubt the worst PK touch routine I've ever come across. Absolutely fine until your audience talk to each other afterwards, it will unravel in seconds. The third touch wouldn't fool a child. Clearly the product of someone who has no experience actually performing (apart from for awful ellusionist videos where you can show instant over reactions and ignore the conversations a few seconds later where they figure out what happened).
Now he's back to his old tricks of flogging other peoples closely guarded secrets to kids on kickstarter. "Get known as the most interesting kid at school" indeed.
Why oh why do people continue to support this man, flogging the same regurgitated material again and again? The majority of his tricks are boring or unworkable, the rest is minor updates on classic material. Selling these sets on kickstarter with comments like "No skills required" should make him a pariah amongst magicians (although having seen him perform it is fair to say his only real skill it talking for so long that you no longer care how whatever he's doing is done, you just want it to finish and then you can run away (giving the impression you're amazed not just desperate to get away). It's time people realised that not only does the emperor have no clothes but he knows it


It always amazes me that people who don’t like me/ don’t like my material always find their way onto threads about me and videos to comment - When I don’t like food, I don’t order it in a restaurant.

Take five minutes out of your day to look at the rave reviews about Midas touch by many, many professional performers - it takes only a minute to find a lot here on the Café. It might not fool anyone when you do it, but no one else has ever had a problem doing it and if you’ve read the booklet carefully you’d know the routine encourages people to talk. I’m sure people on this thread can quite easily verify that, if you understood the nuances or had studied it and actually tried it, you wouldn’t be here posting what you have so it leads me to believe one of four things.

One - you haven’t performed it, in which case your lack of experience on the subject matter doesn’t make you a good person to listen to in regards to the subject.

Two - you have performed it, in which case I’ve never encountered problems and therefore could it be down to your performance - I can’t perform it for you.

Three - you’re trolling.

Four - you genuinely didn’t like it, and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with having a different style or way to approach things. Though your post doesn’t read like that, in my opinion it reads as though you’re bitter, as it seems more about me than it does the material - which makes it bias, that’s not a good perspective to approach reviewing material from. The key is to be objective.

I performed this for a well paid corporate event in London (which was filmed and is in the set) for a well known bank. They recently emailed me that out of the three acts mine was the talking point for days afterwards and they’ve asked to book me back for their xmas party.

In regards to me talking a lot, I do like to talk - I could talk the glass eye out of a dead dog. I agree with you there. Can we see a few of your videos? Id be happy to take a look. I also think it would be productive for people to understand where your view point is coming from, and whether it can be trusted. My videos are up, people can see them and judge for themselves, they also have the reviews of many other people here to go on, I’d like to see so we know what makes all of them really know what makes them so wrong. Maybe you’re the emperor in this scenario? Let’s see your clothes.


Pete x
Peter_turner
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Edit/ amendment* for the sake of clarity in point two - I’ve never experienced problems with people talking afterwards. Every routine has the potential to not go the way planned from billets - the invisible deck, I’ve had very, very few incidents like this with Midas touch but I’d be lying if I said that it has never happened and I always try to be as fair and honest as possible. The beauty of Midas touch is that I’ve done everything possible to reduce the chance of that happening.

Pete x
ed wood
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Sorry you don't like my criticism. It's not that I don't like you, I don't know you or that I don't care for your material. It's that I don't like the way you are selling, marketing these Ellusionist products. I feel you are showing contempt for the art of mentalism. I find the marketing crass and I have no time for anyone who would involve themselves in such a product.
In regards to PK touches. In my opinion this is one of the strongest effects in mentalism. I perform a PK touch routine in every show I do (roughly 3 a week) I use a combination of methods from Banachek, Lior Manor and Patrick Redford. I do not believe you have added anything of value to these methods and subtleties. Your third touch in particular will not bare up under scrutiny or any conversation with people taking part in the routine.
I'm afraid I will not shows videos of myself performing on the Café. I am a full time mentalist and do not want to be associated with Magic or the magic Café. If I was just here to sell tricks to other magicians it would probably be a different matter. I care about the art and performance, nothing else.
kissdadookie
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On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:
Sorry you don't like my criticism. It's not that I don't like you, I don't know you or that I don't care for your material. It's that I don't like the way you are selling, marketing these Ellusionist products. I feel you are showing contempt for the art of mentalism. I find the marketing crass and I have no time for anyone who would involve themselves in such a product.
In regards to PK touches. In my opinion this is one of the strongest effects in mentalism. I perform a PK touch routine in every show I do (roughly 3 a week) I use a combination of methods from Banachek, Lior Manor and Patrick Redford. I do not believe you have added anything of value to these methods and subtleties. Your third touch in particular will not bare up under scrutiny or any conversation with people taking part in the routine.
I'm afraid I will not shows videos of myself performing on the Café. I am a full time mentalist and do not want to be associated with Magic or the magic Café. If I was just here to sell tricks to other magicians it would probably be a different matter. I care about the art and performance, nothing else.


I’m not sure what complications you are encountering with the third touch. If have issues with the third touch then surely you would have had issues with the fourth as well but you keep mentioning the third one specifically. The third one is actually the strongest of the 4 but that is the one you are having difficulty with? Very strange. Your initial post was also stating how terrible all of Peter’s material is but now you seem to have stepped that back and state that you just don’t like the marketing. Odd.
Peter_turner
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On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:
Sorry you don't like my criticism. It's not that I don't like you, I don't know you or that I don't care for your material. It's that I don't like the way you are selling, marketing these Ellusionist products. I feel you are showing contempt for the art of mentalism. I find the marketing crass and I have no time for anyone who would involve themselves in such a product.
In regards to PK touches. In my opinion this is one of the strongest effects in mentalism. I perform a PK touch routine in every show I do (roughly 3 a week) I use a combination of methods from Banachek, Lior Manor and Patrick Redford. I do not believe you have added anything of value to these methods and subtleties. Your third touch in particular will not bare up under scrutiny or any conversation with people taking part in the routine.
I'm afraid I will not shows videos of myself performing on the Café. I am a full time mentalist and do not want to be associated with Magic or the magic Café. If I was just here to sell tricks to other magicians it would probably be a different matter. I care about the art and performance, nothing else.


It’s not that I don’t like your criticism, I’m just offering a balanced perspective for people to make up their own decisions. People have said, and will say a lot worse.

I too value this art form a lot - so much so I dedicated my life to it. Look back at the ‘how to read minds thread’ when lots of people had a lot to say about the marketing and look at my opinions.

In short I said, I have nothing to do with the marketing and or promotion. I film lots of footage and that footage is edited in the promotion the way the company chooses. They are clearly doing something right. BUT, let me be very clear - the same way I was in the threads for the first kit. The trailer is in this case about 11 minutes long, there are hours of footage in all scenarios where ‘I’ get to show my art, share things from my perspective and do ‘this’ the justice it deserves. The good material far outweighs the trailer - that’s the sizzle and as I said it’s clear that they know what they are doing. People received the kits and realised I was being truthful, the marketing might have been wayward but that didn’t affect my ability to do my job properly.

I disagree that the last touch doesn’t bare up under scrutiny, I’ve performed this effect thousands of times for well over a decade and it’s never come undone - I have people film me when I perform it on their phones and talk about it long after the event and it still hasn’t fallen to pieces. I would however like to point out a few things that do you a disservice. You said you use a mixture of several performers touches to create one routine for yourself - well if you’ve taken the time to combine multiple methods to make those right for you and your audience then you have to offer the same trial and mixing/ matching to this before you can talk about his this plays for an audience. Your post implies that those other creators routines weren’t powerful enough for you, because had to intersperse pieces of each into one routine and change them (which probably wasn’t your intention) - when other people have used the the originals just fine. Banachek is a prime example. Other people on this very forum have used and do use Midas touch - I’d like to hear their opinions because they’re the opinions that count. People that have actually road tested it, your post practically admits you haven’t.

You have given them time to work, tried them and made the changes you needed.

I’d never say you are lying about being a professional, or that you perform three times a week as I’ve no reason not to believe you. I do want to point out though that people have made bolder claims on these pages without backing it up before and it’s turned out to be utter lies. We only have your word to go on, which is good enough for me, but is it good enough for the people that are deciding whether to trust your opinion?

Your point about not wanting to be a part of the magic community is an out and out untruth though. You are literally contradicting that by being here and posting. You wouldn’t waste your time wanting your opinion to be heard here if you didn’t want to feel or be part of it.



Pete x
kissdadookie
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Just to make my correction here, I did mean 3rd touch Smile If Ed had issues with the 3rd, the other two would not have passed muster either. I had a brain fart as I was rereading the booklet to see if there was a hole there somewhere which I may have forgotten about Smile
ed wood
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On Aug 26, 2021, kissdadookie wrote:
Just to make my correction here, I did mean 3rd touch Smile If Ed had issues with the 3rd, the other two would not have passed muster either. I had a brain fart as I was rereading the booklet to see if there was a hole there somewhere which I may have forgotten about Smile


It's the gap between the first 2 and the third that is the issue. The stopping, the opening the eyes, then going again. You're giving the audience a moment to refer back to when discussing it with the person taking part. There is no effect I perform that people discuss after more than PK touches, they analyse it step by step, often I will see people recording it on their phones when I perform it in a more casual environment, i.e. not on stage. Quite simply the person taking part will be well aware they were referring to an earlier touch if asked later.
kissdadookie
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On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:
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On Aug 26, 2021, kissdadookie wrote:
Just to make my correction here, I did mean 3rd touch Smile If Ed had issues with the 3rd, the other two would not have passed muster either. I had a brain fart as I was rereading the booklet to see if there was a hole there somewhere which I may have forgotten about Smile


It's the gap between the first 2 and the third that is the issue. The stopping, the opening the eyes, then going again. You're giving the audience a moment to refer back to when discussing it with the person taking part. There is no effect I perform that people discuss after more than PK touches, they analyse it step by step, often I will see people recording it on their phones when I perform it in a more casual environment, i.e. not on stage. Quite simply the person taking part will be well aware they were referring to an earlier touch if asked later.


That final phase is covered by the script though. The premise is hypnosis and inducing the participant. I can understand if you don't want to use the hypnosis premise but as it is taught, the premise and scripting covers you. Your point about this being caught on video in a casual environment where likely someone knows someone else personally (friends), it's a fair point. This however would be the same problem with something like the Hoy principle or Jermay's Touching on Hoy (moreso with those than with this). I don't think that's a problem with Midas Touch though as it's simply some routines are just not suitable for all situations so one really would have to assess the environment they are performing in. Fair point though for casual environments though.
Peter_turner
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On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2021, kissdadookie wrote:
Just to make my correction here, I did mean 3rd touch Smile If Ed had issues with the 3rd, the other two would not have passed muster either. I had a brain fart as I was rereading the booklet to see if there was a hole there somewhere which I may have forgotten about Smile


It's the gap between the first 2 and the third that is the issue. The stopping, the opening the eyes, then going again. You're giving the audience a moment to refer back to when discussing it with the person taking part. There is no effect I perform that people discuss after more than PK touches, they analyse it step by step, often I will see people recording it on their phones when I perform it in a more casual environment, i.e. not on stage. Quite simply the person taking part will be well aware they were referring to an earlier touch if asked later.


Then you’ve completely missed the nuance and subtlety.

Opening the eyes mid performance has the complete opposite effect psychologically. Stop looking at it through the eyes of a performer and look at it through the eyes of a spectator/ audience.

That moment in performance creates the impression of distance. If the touches still happen AFTER the
participant has opened their eyes and re-grouped themselves and re closed them whilst you were away from the person it aids in creating the false memory that you were the first time also. That coupled with the real-time subtlety that is literally the opening line in the ‘effect’ makes it all appear to be what it looks like.

The difference in Pk touches to most effects in Mentalism is that the audience are witnesses to the effect and not the spectator.

Think about what I’m saying here, most Mentalism effects the spectator is the one that experiences the effect, the audience witness the spectator experiencing the effect and react accordingly. Pk touches the audience experience the effect and the spectator gets the second wave in the re-telling of the effect. Due to the fact that they were sensory deprived.

The AUDIENCE are the ones that sell the effect to the spectator not you. If you’ve spent anytime listening to people after PK touches they are the ones that argue with the participant on your behalf. If you then apply the thinking applied to most magic/ Mentalism that the people who experience the effect often embellish what they witnessed or mis-remember then how could it be exposed? The audience have to go against best they’ve seen and experienced to unravel the effect - which simply doesn’t happen. Go back and read about the head and the arm - the spectator admits to feeling it there (cleaning up the effect). If the person whose eyes are closed is wrong and the audience are debating them en-mass then the audience leave simply thinking that maybe they misremembered something else.

Listen to the trailer - the guy literally says, “He didn’t touch you”, “he wasn’t near you”. I’ve multiple testimonies on the kit - including one from a group I performed for earlier in the week that re-saw me in Spain, that’s on the kit - who better to know what the audience think and experience than the audience.

In the jam session on the set we talk in depth about this subject and scrutinise it from all angles. I’ve performed it in all arenas and in all areas, even amongst close friends of mine - who still to this day don’t know how it’s done. I think you’re running whilst not being chased.

Imagine if someone performed invisible deck said, “can I look at the cards” or whilst doing a double said, “hey, let me just look more closely at that card” or with a billet move said, “I’m not handing you that, go away”.

These are all hypothetical situations that if we worried too much about we’d never perform.

Pete x
ed wood
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On Aug 26, 2021, kissdadookie wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2021, kissdadookie wrote:
Just to make my correction here, I did mean 3rd touch Smile If Ed had issues with the 3rd, the other two would not have passed muster either. I had a brain fart as I was rereading the booklet to see if there was a hole there somewhere which I may have forgotten about Smile


It's the gap between the first 2 and the third that is the issue. The stopping, the opening the eyes, then going again. You're giving the audience a moment to refer back to when discussing it with the person taking part. There is no effect I perform that people discuss after more than PK touches, they analyse it step by step, often I will see people recording it on their phones when I perform it in a more casual environment, i.e. not on stage. Quite simply the person taking part will be well aware they were referring to an earlier touch if asked later.


That final phase is covered by the script though. The premise is hypnosis and inducing the participant. I can understand if you don't want to use the hypnosis premise but as it is taught, the premise and scripting covers you. Your point about this being caught on video in a casual environment where likely someone knows someone else personally (friends), it's a fair point. This however would be the same problem with something like the Hoy principle or Jermay's Touching on Hoy (moreso with those than with this). I don't think that's a problem with Midas Touch though as it's simply some routines are just not suitable for all situations so one really would have to assess the environment they are performing in. Fair point though for casual environments though.


I actually have the exact same issue with Touching on Hoy. I believe DR of this nature only works if you are performing for an audience who are all strangers to one another and will not meet and discuss what they've seen after the show. Very few people are working stage shows of this nature. The majority of my work is in the corporate market and whether it is a show or close up people will analyse what they've seen after and I do not believe DR this blatant will pass muster.
Maybe I missed something but I really do not believe the last phase is covered by the script. Nothing will stop someone saying "That last touch, you know, after you opened your eyes and then shut them again, was amazing" to which the reply will be, "Oh, but there wasn't another touch, I thought he was referring to the original touch, at the very beginning". At this point it all falls apart.
Patrick Redford was the first person I came across who uses DR to turn a single touch into numerous touches (although I believe Banachek was using this beforehand). I feel he took this element as far is it can go. To take it further may seem like a good idea on paper but in reality I think you're leaving too many opportunities for people to find the solution without having to look for it. By this I mean that I find PK touches to get extraordinary reactions. People believe it is real. This is no magic trick. unlike so much magic, there is no puzzle to solve. If done well they just believe. If people accidentally discover how it was done just through a casual conversation this will be far more damaging to your reputation than being caught doing a double lift during a card trick.
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Touching on Hoy falls into the category of ‘the participant experiencing something and the audience witnessing them experiencing it’. As does most dual reality, touching on hoy is wonderful - though it unravels far more quickly than an effect of this nature, due to the nature of the make-up of the effect. You wouldn’t buy a drill to hammer a nail into a piece of wood. It’s the right tool for the right job - Touching on Hoy is amazing when the circumstances are right. Same as most effects - you don’t have to use them all the time just because you bought them.

Again, just to rounded of the point about this - you’re not the one trying to prove what you did, the audience are.

This is more (as Mark Chandau would say) ‘Blurred Reality’ - In Midas touch the audience believe they’ve witnessed everything, the spectator has confirmed what they’ve witnessed so they wouldn’t be able to pull it apart piece by piece like in your example. Anyone who’s in doubt about what’s being said here just watch the jam session on the kit. There’s multiple examples including a corporate event and stage and close up. I’ve been there and done it, for over ten years and been re-booked time and time again.

I understand your concern about DR - but you’re moving the goal posts with every single post you’re making, first it was about me, then it wasn’t, then it was about the marketing, then it’s about dual reality in a professional context.

You said yourself who you felt the kit was aimed at in your criticism about the marketing - you can’t have it both ways, if it’s aimed at beginners and the inexperienced as you claim then what does DR in corporate have to do with it?

I disagree from actually using this in the real world, not theorising about it - but I’m bias, so my view is equally as unfair if I was to adhere to my own rules.

The only way to know is to hear from others who’ve actually used it,

Pete x
kissdadookie
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On Aug 26, 2021, ed wood wrote:

I actually have the exact same issue with Touching on Hoy. I believe DR of this nature only works if you are performing for an audience who are all strangers to one another and will not meet and discuss what they've seen after the show. Very few people are working stage shows of this nature. The majority of my work is in the corporate market and whether it is a show or close up people will analyse what they've seen after and I do not believe DR this blatant will pass muster.
Maybe I missed something but I really do not believe the last phase is covered by the script. Nothing will stop someone saying "That last touch, you know, after you opened your eyes and then shut them again, was amazing" to which the reply will be, "Oh, but there wasn't another touch, I thought he was referring to the original touch, at the very beginning". At this point it all falls apart.
Patrick Redford was the first person I came across who uses DR to turn a single touch into numerous touches (although I believe Banachek was using this beforehand). I feel he took this element as far is it can go. To take it further may seem like a good idea on paper but in reality I think you're leaving too many opportunities for people to find the solution without having to look for it. By this I mean that I find PK touches to get extraordinary reactions. People believe it is real. This is no magic trick. unlike so much magic, there is no puzzle to solve. If done well they just believe. If people accidentally discover how it was done just through a casual conversation this will be far more damaging to your reputation than being caught doing a double lift during a card trick.


I really do think it depends on the type of show and environment you are performing in. A theater show or on the street busking, I don't find there to be a problem with this because you have so many areas of the audience to draw from that you can be assured that those people are not going to talk to each other afterwards because they are strangers. Granted, maybe a friend of the participant is taping it and talk amongst themselves afterwards but I don't find that to take away from anything because at that point, if they try to convince strangers otherwise it is a bit futile because to me it is the equivalent of performing hypnosis and having the participant go "No, I was just playing along though." The premise and scripting in Midas Touch in part relies on the premise of hypnosis which makes the routine as strong and near bulletproof as it is. If Banachek performed it, he would likely have more problems because he is always disclaiming that what he does is all an illusion so he doesn't have this "is this possibly hypnosis?" angle he can fall back on. End of the day though, if you really do not like the third phase, you can just cut it out if you want or modify it. For those same reasons, I find Touching on Hoy to be remarkable, but of course the performer needs to understand the audience and environments he/she performs in. Not all material suits all people, this is just a fact and one can't really fault a piece simply because it doesn't fit their individual needs.

Like I said, your points on Midas Touch were valid, but they really only apply to certain situations and is not in any way universal. The issue is that you stated criticisms as if they were universal faults rather than circumstantial and environmental.
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