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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
I have been playing around with a few ideas for Triumph recently. I am aware that there are many versions with extra kickers such as colour-changing-deck & deck being restored to new deck order.
It occurred to me you could also do Triumph with the selection being revealed to have an odd back. I can think of a few ways to approach this. Just curious to know if this effect already exists? And what do you guys think of the idea? My biggest concern would be the odd back would lead the audience to correctly conclude the card was forced (due to the Too Perfect principle) |
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts |
In my opinion, any colour change (be it one card or the whole deck) in a Triumph routine, is unnecessary clutter. As is, the trick has a nice clear, easy to follow plot - adding another effect just muddies the waters.
Jim |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1665 Posts |
By all means, explore the idea; you might come up with something that does work. However, I tend to agree with Jim.
It sounds like you're trying to fuse Triumph with Brainwave. Although Truimph can be presented as deeply magical, the righting of all the face-up cards suggests extreme skill on the performer's part. Brainwave, on the other hand, is a prediction effect with a redundant climax. Unfortunately, these differences make the plots somewhat incompatible. The overall theme of Triumph is "order out of chaos". For this reason, a more suitable kicker would be the cards being in new deck order, something that many magicians have also explored. Marty |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Thank you both for the feedback. I think I was trying to be too "clever". Just because you could do something extra does not mean you should. In fact I think I read something by Darwin Ortiz where he was very critical of magicians gratuitously adding "kickers".
Thanks for keeping me on the True Path. |
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salmononius2 New user 97 Posts |
I feel like with the right justification, an odd backed card could improve the trick. In Art of Astonishment 1, Paul Harris has a triumph-based trick where the patter is that the deck is 'broken' which is why half the deck is flipping face up, and the 'guarantee on the Joker' is used to fix it. I could see a similar patter working well with an odd backed card, something like the deck 'breaks' (shuffles face up into face down), gets 'fixed' (all face down), but one card is still 'broken' (remained face up), and then you show it's 'really broken' (back color is different).
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Merc Man Inner circle NUNEATON, Warwickshire 2537 Posts |
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On Oct 7, 2021, jim ferguson wrote: 100% agree. Along similar lines, I've tried to explain to people on here over the years (often to no avail), that Card to Wallet doesn't sit well as a conclusion to an Ambitious Card Routine either. They are two completely different routines/effects.
Barry Allen
Over 14 years have passed - and still missing Abra Magazine arriving every Saturday morning. |
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts |
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On Nov 25, 2021, Merc Man wrote: What is the effect of the Ambitious Card? Presentation and effect are not (necessarily) the same thing. If a card can leap to the top... why can't it magically leap elsewhere? And why aren't we imaginative enough to come up with a simple patter line to connect those dots? The magic is whatever we want it to be. Who cares that some dude 70 years ago said, "This card is ambitious! It always comes to the top!"? |
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kardillusions Special user Calgary, AB 541 Posts |
Triumph already has a double climax. A lost selection is found to be the only card miraculously face up in the deck; AND half of the cards that were previously shuffled face up (into face down cards) all turn over at once, correcting the state of the deck. It's a small peeve of mine that so many magicians make this reveal into one quick moment.
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Merc Man Inner circle NUNEATON, Warwickshire 2537 Posts |
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On Nov 25, 2021, Rupert Pupkin wrote: You couldn't be more wrong. The routine and method is whatever 'we' want to be. The 'Magic' however, is whatever is generated into the mind(s) of the spectator(s). To be honest, I've personally never liked the 'Ambitious Card'. Many go on for far too long; and to quote Cy Endfield, "suffer from Double Lift Indigestion". To this end, I've always at least considered the Endfield Ambitious Card routine to at least have the most creatively constructed plot.
Barry Allen
Over 14 years have passed - and still missing Abra Magazine arriving every Saturday morning. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
I encourage Nikodemus to follow his ideas. Maybe they'll work, maybe not, but no one gets anywhere by *not* trying things.
I've always been uncomfortable with the Triumph plot itself because -- well, it muddies the effect! Is the trick about finding a selection, or about cards righting themselves? |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Bob G. said...
" Is the trick about finding a selection, or about cards righting themselves? " Yes and yes and it is great.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 999 Posts |
Bob, the selection being found is the direct result of the cards righting themselves, so I feel it doesn't muddy the effect. However, I do think changing the back color detracts from the effect. Less is more with this one.
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Wizuriel New user 53 Posts |
John Guastaferro has a really nice triumph with a color change in his penguin live.
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Hi Thomas and Tortuga,
I hope I made it clear that I was just expressing my own subjective opinion. The best "pick a card" tricks are good precisely *because* their manner of locating the card is interesting. And that's exactly what Triumph does -- except that for some reason it doesn't grab me the way it does so many other people. The point I was trying to make was that, because these things are subjective, there's absolutely nothing wrong with people experimenting with ideas that excite them. As I look back at the thread, I'm pleased to see how constructive and civilized it is. Although Nick is a big boy and can take care of himself , I just wanted him not to give up too quickly on an idea that interested him. Thanks, Bob |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Wizuriel,
I got curious about the Guastaferro effect you mentioned, and I checked in his book One Degree to see if it was there, too, since I don't own his penguin lecture. The book didn't have the trick you mentioned, but it *did* have another very interesting-looking Triumph effect in which much of the work is done in the spectator's hands. Later: I found the following DVD, but I'm not sure it's the lecture you referred to; none of the descriptions sound like Triumph. Any leads? https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/live-l......lecture/ Bob |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
Well, I'm continuing to mull over people's ideas... I just reread Salmononius's post, and it struck me as a nice way to justify what's going on. I'm beginning to feel that aphorisms like "Less is more" have to be moderated by other principles, like "Use patter or a plot that makes the magic coherent or meaningful." Salmononius's thoughts could turn the color-changing back into an interesting kicker that is natural instead of a meaningless add-on.
fwiw... |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1140 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 16, 2021, Bob G wrote: Thanks Bob! I agree that we are all ultimately entitled to our own opinions about what makes "good" magic. But I also value the advice of Café members who are much more experienced than me. On the subject of the dual effects of Triumph (cards right themselves except the selection) - I think there is a clear logic to the normal storyline. It starts as a pick-a-card trick with the spectator invited to shuffle the cards "any way they want". Then the wicked spectator shuffles half of them upside-down. I suppose you could argue that the magician would "succeed" if he just found the selection (without sorting out the other cards) - but that would render the whole shuffle problem pretty much irrelevant. The fact that he finds the selection AND straightens out all the other cards is a great result. So it is makes a standard pick-a-card trick into something much more interesting and unusual (to most audiences). Another way to look at it, is to ask what would it be like if there was NO selection? Just half the deck reversed. This trick does indeed exist. But for me it is much less interesting than Triumph. It seems "clever" but not "magical". The Triumph storyline creates drama. And having ONE specific card that remains reversed seems to add hugely to the sense of impossibility. I think it is rightly regarded a a classic, because it is so different in character from other effects. PS my favourite version of the storyline is from David Williamson. The awkward spectator is a cocky young magician who tries to pull a fast one on The Professor, to the horror of the other magicians. That cocky magician turns out to be Williamson himself! |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts |
"But I also value the advice of Café members who are much more experienced than me." So do I -- big time!
Thanks for your thoughts on why the trick is magical, and also the Williamson storyline. Bob |
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Blindside785 Inner circle Olympia, WA 4541 Posts |
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On Oct 7, 2021, Nikodemus wrote: Isn't Nacho Mama's Triumph from Daniel Garcia this way? |
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ThomasJ Special user Chicago 999 Posts |
I agree with you about following ideas and trying new things. I also agree that aphorisms should take into account the context. If the deck is in NDO after the cards straighten out, that would be an example of adding more, but it would makes sense and strengthen the effect. A color change just doesn't do much for me in Triumph - as you mentioned, all subjective of course.
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