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Curtis Kam
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same as you, plus 3 and enough to make
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Marco? Polo? Anyone with a hot tip?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
DanielGreenWolf
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Quote:
On 2004-07-21 09:43, BroDavid wrote:

Can anyone tell me where to find information on the 10 foot toss and link? Is it even written up anywhee?



I've done the Arial Crash Link (that's the name I believe) for several years and is one of the early pinnacle points of my 6 ring linking ring act.

I believe you can find work on it briefly in McBride's Magic on Stage Video Series.

If you're into rings, this is fantastic work from a renowned pro.
-Much love,
Daniel GreenWolf
Celtic Magician

www.GreenWolfMagic.com
phread
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md
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The debate about marco polo has some serious historical substance. the strongest being that there is no where in china a record of him being there and that some of what he describes was written by others before he wrote is book. it is possible that he traveled east, never made it to china and got info from the silk trade routes. there have been some recent works on this subject by historians.
dug
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Pete Biro
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I firmly believe the rings have origins in Egype and traveled both ways on the silk route.
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Andini
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Pete, would you mind explaining why you believe this? What evidence suggests that the rings originated in Egypt. Your theory is plausible as the silk route would be the ideal way to pass the effect around the world (at least what they thought was the world). Also, approximately when do you believe the rings originated? The silk road was around as early as 200 B.C.E. and, according to some on the board, it reached China by the 13th century (unless it was invented independently).

Just curious. Keep us posted on your book!
Pete Biro
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I forgot to mention the photos of "possible" linking rings in the National Museum at Prague, Czech Republic. There were several rings and some "keys"(?) will broken rings... so if a conjurer of the time worked with these??????????

Anyway, I got the chance to take pictures of these items and their date... any guesses? Will respond to answers later.
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The Mighty Fool
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Would any of you care to hear my input on this? I garuntee, you won't beelive it, and I CANT explain where or how I found out, but, I have a weird angle on history.
I have no idea what the year was....I can't make heads / tails out of the language, and the calander was totaly whacked...I think it began with April and then went into January...something like that. All I know for sure is that it began in Spain (whose name sounded something like "I bury you"), a big war had just ended, and some guy named skippy-oh was the big man back in Rome.
There were all sorts of lousy jobs to have, but 'miner' was the absolute worst. No one was 'employed' in the silver mines, it was 100% slaves. Slaves worked day & night...it made absolutely no difference, because they were usualy underground. They had no sense of when the sun rose or set. The only real advantage of this was that conditions in the shafts (about 3 feet high) were so draconian and dangerous, that the rod-carrying sadistic overseers rarely came in to beat the wretches.

One degrading aspect of this slavery was that the slaves were forced to make the very chains which were use to restrain them. The process went like this: a cord of solder or rope or....something (I don't know what exactly) was wound around the round base of a stalactite, then liquid metal was poured all down the stalactite, covering the ring on both sides and all over. 5 of these were then broken with a cleved hammer, and melted back together into a chain of 5, which was fastened to a shaft wall at one end, and the slave's ankle at the other. This was a system of rotation....the young, strong, fresh slaves would be chained to the deepest parts of the shaft, so as to prevent any uprising. Each week, the overseers would come along and examine each slave, and the ones which had gotten injured / weaker / sicker, would be rotated to a chain position nearer to the shaft entrance. This was accomplished by breaking the second ring from the slave's ankle (leaving the remaining 3 attached to the wall), moving him to a vacant set of 3 rings, and re-melting the 2 rings shut fast to the 3. The rings were soft, but too strong to break with the rocks or bronze picks which the slaves had.

One day (at the time which I mentioned above)a slave named Sarcengitorix from a people called the alamany was brought to work at the mines, and somehow he'd heard of the rotation method and the method of ring construction....and had hatched a scheme. While making what would be the 2nd or 'key' ring of his chain, he urinated (I think, or possibly he poured a vial of vinegar) on a small section of the chain before calling for the metal. He was affixed to a 3 ring set deep in a smelly shaft, and once he was alone, he waited for the heat of the shaft fires to do the trick. Whatever was inside the metal on that section reacted to the heat...expanding I guess, and with some wriggling and sweat, the ring came undone!

Over the next few weeks, Sarcen gradually moved himself further & further up the shaft by affixing the key ring to different sets of 3. Finally, he was 'chained' to the outside area, where only the very weakest slaves were put to do the sorting work on the mined ore, and the overseers were careless. When one overseer stopped to remove a sharp pebble from his foot, placing his hammer on the ground within Sarcen's reach, his brains were made to see the light of day. Sarcen then affixed the bloody overseer to his chain of 3, and took off. It was days before anyone realized that the typicaly bloody & half-dead looking wretch lying chained to the wall was not a slave.

He stowed away on a boat to the African coast, snuck / drifted his way along the southern Mediterranian coastline, was breifly captured near Carthage by a Numidian rebel leader, ended up singing on as a mercenary, and joined a raid into Egypt. Here, though captured, the princess was so taken by his good looks and exotic appearance (by Ptolemic standards) that she convinced her father the Pharoah to make him her monkey. (The ancient egyptian equivalent of 'jester / fool') She loved to hear all his stories (through her interpereter) and when he explained the 'chain-deception', she decided to play a trick on her brother, by challenging him to chain her (with a gaffed set) and she escaped.
I have no idea exactly where or how it migrated or evolved from that point, but there you have it.
Everybody wants to beleive.....we just help them along.
cheesewrestler
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"Jacobs ... commenced the public exercise of the conjuring profession ... during the summer and autumn of 1834 ... his best illusion being the linking ring trick, which had been recently introduced into Europe by a Chinese juggler, and consists in the dextrous manipulation of a number of metallic rings, apparently without any opening in them, but capable of being rapidly separated and and re-united in the hands of the conjuror."

Thomas Frost, "Lives of the Conjurors" (1875)
deerbourne
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There is also conjecture that Marco Polo based his accounts on the writings of Sir John Mandeville. Mandeville actually travelled to the Far East and published his story of his travels (1322). I don't know if Mandeville mentions magicians at all. I'll post back if I find anything in, "The Riddle and The Knight." Mandeville's book is called "The Travels".

Deerbourne
cheesewrestler
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"Mandeville's Travels ... purports to be the memoir of Sir John Mandeville, a knight of St. Alban's, writing in his old age of his adventurous life in Europe and the East ...the current critical consensus is that there was no such person and that the author, whoever he was, travelled only in his imagination."

Sarah Salih (University of East Anglia) http://www.LitEncyc.com
Pete Biro
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The late Topper Martyn said none of the Playbills of the Chinese Conurers, preceding Jacobs, listed the Linking Rings.

I have the FIRST KNOWN set of instructions (a fine xerox) for the Linking Rings, from Japan, but I have information pre-that set from Spain, when Damatus performed a Royal Command performance for the Royalty of Belgium.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
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I think you are referring to Scipio, who was one of the leaders of the army in Iberia. I can't find any reference to Sarcengetorix, who, judging from his name, might have been a Helvetian. Scipio is one of the larger families of the Roman gentry.
There is some historical information about that family here http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/scipio-family.htm

I couldn't find any reference to Sarcengetorix. I did find Vircengetorix, but his history doesn't match with this one. Nor does it fit the timetable.


Quote:
On 2004-09-01 02:27, The Mighty Fool wrote:
Would any of you care to hear my input on this? I garuntee, you won't beelive it, and I CANT explain where or how I found out, but, I have a weird angle on history.
I have no idea what the year was....I can't make heads / tails out of the language, and the calander was totaly whacked...I think it began with April and then went into January...something like that. All I know for sure is that it began in Spain (whose name sounded something like "I bury you"), a big war had just ended, and some guy named skippy-oh was the big man back in Rome.
There were all sorts of lousy jobs to have, but 'miner' was the absolute worst. No one was 'employed' in the silver mines, it was 100% slaves. Slaves worked day & night...it made absolutely no difference, because they were usualy underground. They had no sense of when the sun rose or set. The only real advantage of this was that conditions in the shafts (about 3 feet high) were so draconian and dangerous, that the rod-carrying sadistic overseers rarely came in to beat the wretches.

One degrading aspect of this slavery was that the slaves were forced to make the very chains which were use to restrain them. The process went like this: a cord of solder or rope or....something (I don't know what exactly) was wound around the round base of a stalactite, then liquid metal was poured all down the stalactite, covering the ring on both sides and all over. 5 of these were then broken with a cleved hammer, and melted back together into a chain of 5, which was fastened to a shaft wall at one end, and the slave's ankle at the other. This was a system of rotation....the young, strong, fresh slaves would be chained to the deepest parts of the shaft, so as to prevent any uprising. Each week, the overseers would come along and examine each slave, and the ones which had gotten injured / weaker / sicker, would be rotated to a chain position nearer to the shaft entrance. This was accomplished by breaking the second ring from the slave's ankle (leaving the remaining 3 attached to the wall), moving him to a vacant set of 3 rings, and re-melting the 2 rings shut fast to the 3. The rings were soft, but too strong to break with the rocks or bronze picks which the slaves had.

One day (at the time which I mentioned above)a slave named Sarcengitorix from a people called the alamany was brought to work at the mines, and somehow he'd heard of the rotation method and the method of ring construction....and had hatched a scheme. While making what would be the 2nd or 'key' ring of his chain, he urinated (I think, or possibly he poured a vial of vinegar) on a small section of the chain before calling for the metal. He was affixed to a 3 ring set deep in a smelly shaft, and once he was alone, he waited for the heat of the shaft fires to do the trick. Whatever was inside the metal on that section reacted to the heat...expanding I guess, and with some wriggling and sweat, the ring came undone!

Over the next few weeks, Sarcen gradually moved himself further & further up the shaft by affixing the key ring to different sets of 3. Finally, he was 'chained' to the outside area, where only the very weakest slaves were put to do the sorting work on the mined ore, and the overseers were careless. When one overseer stopped to remove a sharp pebble from his foot, placing his hammer on the ground within Sarcen's reach, his brains were made to see the light of day. Sarcen then affixed the bloody overseer to his chain of 3, and took off. It was days before anyone realized that the typicaly bloody & half-dead looking wretch lying chained to the wall was not a slave.

He stowed away on a boat to the African coast, snuck / drifted his way along the southern Mediterranian coastline, was breifly captured near Carthage by a Numidian rebel leader, ended up singing on as a mercenary, and joined a raid into Egypt. Here, though captured, the princess was so taken by his good looks and exotic appearance (by Ptolemic standards) that she convinced her father the Pharoah to make him her monkey. (The ancient egyptian equivalent of 'jester / fool') She loved to hear all his stories (through her interpereter) and when he explained the 'chain-deception', she decided to play a trick on her brother, by challenging him to chain her (with a gaffed set) and she escaped.
I have no idea exactly where or how it migrated or evolved from that point, but there you have it.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
The Mighty Fool
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To Mr. Palmer:
Scipio huh? Was he around during or after some sort of huge war? I don't know, but I presume this happened during the Roman empire. Don't remember hearing any words sounding like Helveti....the word he used was like 'alemany' or 'alimony' or ali-somthing. The only other effects (regarding magic) that I've heard of in history are the cups & balls, and the wand. By the way, you cut a fine dash as merlyn the enchanter!
Everybody wants to beleive.....we just help them along.
cheesewrestler
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Quote:
On 2004-09-08 23:14, The Mighty Fool wrote:
To Mr. Palmer:
Scipio huh? Was he around during or after some sort of huge war?

the word he used was like 'alemany' or 'alimony' or ali-somthing.


Publius Cornelius Scipio, "Africanus", the younger, died 129 BC. Several notable campaigns in Spain ("Iberia" in Latin), and elsewhere.

The Alemanni were a Germanic tribe, first record of them dates from 213 AD.
Torkova
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As I'm researching this trick it occurred to me that when I was in China I saw many magicians perform traditional magic. I don't recall any of them doing the rings but they all produced the bowls of water. The Chinese magicians do continue to carry on what has been done for hundreds of years. If the rings were invented in China you would think that they would be in their traditional repertoire. Any thoughts on this?
Pete Biro
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A Spaniard named Damatus, mentioned in one of Caradano's works is the first reference of anyone I have found doing the rings. His act was written up in the 1500s when he performed in Belgium at a Royal Command Performance.

Tamariz sent me references of the rings done during the Inquisitions (I need some translation work)!

THEN... AND THIS IS AMAZING...

Whilst on holiday in the Czech Republic, at the National Museum, I photographed a stack of metal rings in a display, with one or more of them containing a SLIT... or KEY???

Dated 200 BC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tilman
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Mr. Biro, what did the museum's catalogue or guide say about the nature of these rings? Was any specific purpose attributed to them? I am very curious...
Turk
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Not trying to go completely off-topic, but, which magic routine is thought to be older? Cups and Balls or the Rings? Also, does anyone have any idea as to what is thought to be the oldest magic effect? Is it something other than either Cupps and Balls or the Rings? and, what is the oldest written reference (written or pictorialized) related to any magic effect?

Just curious.

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
Pete Biro
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The oldest of the olde drawings show cups and balls hundreds of years before any rings show up. BTW the Egyptian Tomb heiroglyphics shown in several magic books ARE NOT cups and balls but bakers molding bread. You gotta read all the wall to see the relationship of those drawings.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
gerard1973
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Marco Polo did travel to China.

The details that the young Polo observed included regional histories, descriptions of cities, architecture, inhabitants, races, languages and governments. Also described are peoples' different lifestyles, diets, style of dress, marriage customs, rituals, and religions. There are further accounts of the trading practices, crafts, manufactured products, plants, animals, minerals, and terrain. Such a diverse and detailed account of the lands that he journeyed earned Polo the name 'the father of modern anthropology.'

In China there is an ancient bridge called "Lugou Qiao" in Chinese which translates as the Marco Polo bridge. Beijing, China is the Cambuluc (Khanbaliq) described in Marco Polo's accounts. Marco Polo lived in China during the reign of Kubla Khan, met Kubla Khan and learned about pasta, sherbet, and paper currency. He brought this knowledge back to Europe with him. While in China Marco Polo did watch Chinese Magicians perform but nothing is mentioned in his writings about the linking rings.
"Confusion is not magic."
Dai Vernon
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